Stride..a victim?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Illustrated Police News, Oct 20:

A NEW LIGHT ON THE CRIMES.

The Vienna correspondent of the Standard states that Dr. Bloch, a member of the Austrian Reichsrath for the Galician constituency of Kokomea, has called his attention to certain facts which may throw a new light on the Whitechapel murders, and perhaps afford some assistance in tracing the murderer. In various German criminal codes of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, as also in statutes of a more recent date, punishments are prescribed for the mutilation of female corpses with the object of making from the uterus and other organs the so-called "diebalichter" or "schlafslichter", respectively "thieves' candles" or "soporific candles." According to an old superstition, still rife in various parts of Germany, the light from such candles will throw those upon whom it falls into the deepest slumbers, and they may, consequently, become a valuable instrument to those of the thieving profession. Hence arose their name. In regard to these "schlafslichter," quite a literature might be cited. They are referred to by Ave Lallement in his "Das Deutsche Gaunerthum" published in Leipzig in 1858; by Loffler, in "Die Mangelhafte Justiz" by Thiele, and numerous others. They also played an important part in the trials of robber bands at Odenwald and in Westphalia, in the years 1812 and 1841 respectively. The "schlafslichter" were heard of, too, at the trial of the notorious German robber, Theodor Unger, surnamed "the handsome Charley," who was executed at Magdeburg in 1810. It was on that occasion discovered that a regular manufactory had been established by gangs of thieves for the production of such candles. That this superstition has survived among German thieves to the present day was proved by a case tried at Biala, in Galicia, as recently as 1875. In this the body of a woman had been found mutilated in precisely the same way as were the victims of the Whitechapel murderer. At that trial, as at one which took place subsequently at Zeszow, which is also in Galicia, and in which the accused were a certain Ritter and his wife, the prevalence among thieves of superstition was alluded to by the Public Prosecutor. In the Ritter case, however, the Court preferred harping on another alleged superstition of a ritual character among the Jews of Galicia, which, however, was shown to be a pure invention of the Judenhettzer. Dr. Bloch, who for ten years was a rabbi in Galicia and has made the superstitions of that province his special study, affirms that the "thieves' candle" superstition still exists among robbers of every confession and, as he believes, also of every nationality. He considers, however, that it prevails most among German thieves. Among other German laws where the crime in question is dealt with, the "Code Theresiana," chap. xxii., clause 59, may be referred to.

Interestingly, there were a lot of Germans at the club on double event night. Irish Times:

The club spoken of is occupied by what is known as the National Workmen's Educational Society, and is affiliated to the Socialist League, of which it is a foreign branch. Its members seem to be largely composed of Russian Jews, and Jews of other nationalities also find a welcome there. Many of them live on the premises which, however, are extensive. At the back there is a fair sized hall made by demolishing the partition between two rooms, and here on Saturday nights the members gather for the purpose of debate and amusement. Last night the debate was largely attended by Germans, nearly a hundred being at one time in the room, and the subject of discussion, which was "Is it necessary that a Jew should be a Socialist" proved so interesting that it was carried on to a late hour.

A couple of lurkers in the vicinity of the club that night, had German name origins.

Israel Schwartz
German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): nickname for someone with black hair or a dark complexion, from Middle High German swarz, German schwarz, Yiddish shvarts ‘dark’, ‘black’. This name is widespread throughout central and eastern Europe.

Joseph Koster
Dutch and North German: status name for a sexton, Middle Dutch coster(e). Compare German Kuster. North German (Köster): occupational nickname or status name for a day laborer who owned no land, from Middle Low German koster, from kossater ‘cottager’. South German: occupational name for a wine taster, from kosten ‘to taste’. Jewish (Ashkenazic): occupational name for a grocer or provisioner, from German Koster ‘provisions’, ‘foodstuffs’ + the agent suffix -er.

It seems unknown where Koster lived, although conceivably he tenanted with Mr & Mrs Kentorich, at #38.
Koster had an associate, named:

Abraham Hershberg
Americanized spelling of German or Jewish variant spelling of Herschberg (see Herschberger) or Hirschberg.

Important club members with German last names, included Wess, Krantz (variation on Kranz), and...

Morris Siegel (Eagle)
German and Jewish (Ashkenazic): metonymic occupational name for a maker of seals or signet rings, or for an official in charge of a seal, from Middle High German sigel ‘seal’. The Jewish name can also be ornamental. German: from a medieval personal name, a pet form of the various Germanic personal names formed with sigi ‘victory’ as the first element, for example Siegfried. Jewish (Ashkenazic): variant of Segal.

[Michael W Richards]

Its correct however to state categorically that Israel Schwartz and his statement were quite obviously deemed irrelevant to the question as to How Lies Dies. As it is correct to state without equivocation that his statement would have certainly had direct bearing on the question asked by the Inquest. Had it been submitted.

[Michael W Richards]

The time of the murder
The location of the murder
The weapon used
Out of the canonical 5 the only murder committed South of Whitechapel Road
The neck wound was less severe than the other victims due to a smaller knife being used by the killer
Kidney had a previous conviction for assaulting Stride
Inquest testimony shows they had an argument shortly before her murder

and it is not just me that believes Stride was not a Ripper victim

Here is a quote from Stewart Evans
"‘The evidence surrounding the Stride murder is very problematical, and extremely confusing when read in full. The lasting impression is of a domestic dispute-related murder. On the Tuesday before her death, Stride walked out of the home she shared with Michael Kidney, a brutal, heavy-drinking labourer, who was known to have frequently assaulted her. The case does not bear the distinctive stamp of a Ripper killing."

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I in fact addressed Stewart years ago about this murder on this site and he gave an opinion that the times witnesses gave cannot all exist as given, and its difficult to sort out whose account has substance, and he said that he personally saw 2 or 3 murders likely connectable with the Jack the Ripper mythology.

One thing you omitted above Trevor is the circumstantial evidence as relates to her being there at that time...both her attire and consciousness of details suggest she was there to meet someone. Not soliciting. Which is what the first 2 victims admitted themselves they were doing.

Its incorrect to suggest that these five women were all similarly disposed at the time they meet their killer. And its incorrect to suggest some kind of explanatory event for the absence of anything but one single cut without any evidence of such an event in known evidence. And lastly its incorrect to naturally marry this murder with "rippings".

[Herlock Sholmes]

On whether you’ve suggested that Schwartz non-attendance must have been down to a lack of faith in his evidence. You said:


“Would he have been forced to attend, if there were genuine concerns about his and his family's safety if he did so? I don't know the answer, I'm merely curious.

If he is called to the inquest - which he surely was - he is legally obliged to attend.

If there were concerns over safety, there is a mechanism for dealing with this - appearance in camera.

There is no evidence that this mechanism was used, and therefore it is highly likely that Israel Schwartz dodged the inquest.

If every witness called to an inquest or court case could simply refuse to turn up on safety grounds, the entire legal system would pretty much collapse.

Given that Schwartz was happy to give an anonymous interview to the Star, the day after the murder, Schwartz himself could hardly have too many concerns about his or his family's (assuming there was one) safety - an anonymous daytime interview by a newspaper reporter, on a Whitechapel street, is hardly a high-security arrangement - either physically or in privacy terms. Compare that to an in camera appearance at an inquest, with the sort of protection available as was placed around Lawende, and any excuse for Schwartz' non-attendance simply evaporates.”

So you’re clearly dismissing all other reasons for Schwartz non-attendance.

This will probably be the last time that I bother to mention this. But I was indignantly asked by NBFN to show where he’d proposed that Schwartz non-attendance at the Inquest must have been down to the police’s loss of faith in his statement. Clearly he’s doing just that in the above quote by seeking to demonstrate how the other possible reasons can be dismissed. I’d hoped for an acknowledgment but all I’ve had is a disappearance from NBFN. Fishy118 used to do this. Likewise a couple of other posters. Most would accept their mistake.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But you seem hell bent on wanting to belive that she was a ripper victim and that the killer was interrupted, and you will not even consider that she was not a ripper victim but may have been killed by another unrelated killer who was not involved in any of the other murders.

When weighing up all the facts of her murder, the balance of probabilty I would suggest is in favour or her not being a ripper victim for all the reasons I have already given

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The above emboldened part seriously makes me wonder if you actually read the posts that you’re responding to or others in the same thread?

From post #1093:

. Of course it’s possible that she wasn’t but it’s something that cannot be proven or disproven.

From post #1091:

. And I accept the possibility that she might not have been a ripper victim

From post #1086:

. . We can't prove interruption of course but equally we can't disprove it.

From post # 976:

. As you know, any doubt that I might have about whether Stride was a victim or not is based on the location and the level of risk

From post # 961:

. I’m not saying that this is definitely what happened because the possibility exists that she wasn’t killed by the ripper

From post # 888:

I’ve also expressed my own doubts about whether Stride was a ripper victim based on the chosen location so I don’t see how I can be accused of being dogmatically pro-interruption

From post # 896:

. As I've said it's quite possible that Stride wasn't a victim.

Do these sound like quotes from someone that’s hell bent on wanting to believe that Stride was a ripper victim? And to collect these quotes I’ve only gone back to page #60 from page # 70.

Ill add this one Trevor just so that you can be sure that I’m up to date:

I accept that Stride might not have been killed by the ripper. It’s a possibility; as is the possibility that she was.

[Trevor Marriott]

I don’t understand why the resistance to the obviously possible suggestion that Stride was a ripper victim. Of course it’s possible that she wasn’t but it’s something that cannot be proven or disproven.

But you seem hell bent on wanting to belive that she was a ripper victim and that the killer was interrupted, and you will not even consider that she was not a ripper victim but may have been killed by another unrelated killer who was not involved in any of the other murders.

When weighing up all the facts of her murder, the balance of probabilty I would suggest is in favour or her not being a ripper victim for all the reasons I have already given

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Were there any ripper murders committed as eary as Strides murder? No there was not

So what? You’re talking about differences of an hour or two. So how is it relevant.

Were any of the murders in street locations where people were moving about in numbers? No there were not

In numbers? Bit of an exaggeration there Trevor?

Throat cutting does not make it a common factor as this was an adopted method to kill in Victorian times

Others have provided evidence on here numerous times that this wasn’t a common occurrence.

If it would have taken the killer moments to cut her throat then it would have also only taken moments to stab the victim several times in the abdomen. Too much emphasis is being placed on the lack of mutilations due to the sugestion that he was disturbed.

Interruption is a suggestion that it’s foolish to ignore. Blackwell gave a TOD of between approx 12.46 and 12.56. She’s potentially seen nearby very recently and lo and behold a cart arrives on thee act spot at just the right time to add substance to the possibility of interruption. The lack of mutilation cannot be used as a means of dismissing this as a ripper killing because interruption is possible.

Phillips and Blackwell could only say that they belived the wound to the neck was made with a smaller knife than that had previously been used, and that is consistent with the small wound to the neck.

Can you point out where they say this Trevor? I’ve just read the Inquest testimonies of Blackwell and Phillips and neither mention anything about knives used in earlier crimes. They only give opinions on the knife found by Coram outside the laundry.

Most of the other victims were almost decapitated by what would seem to have been one deep cut and swipe of the knife across the throat, not a small wound to the neck

Interruption could account for this.

Kidney was convicted on one occassion of assult on her, although I am led to believe others were reported which didnt get to court.

Are you certain of that though? You may be correct but assaults don’t always turn to murder but I don’t disagree that this would naturally make him a person of interest.

Statistiscs are not always reliable

Neither is interpretation.

We see no evidence of two attacks on women on the same night and in close proximity to each other

Connected in what way?

Look at it another way I am playing devils advocate with regards to the suggestion that he was interrupted. He would have had to make a quick exit that might have resulted in him being seen, with that in mind and given the fact that he had carried out a murder which is what he presumably set out to do, why would he run the risk of wandering the streets looking for another victim knowing that the police would be on high alert from the discovery of Strides body ,knowing that he might have been seen, surley he would have wanted to distance himself as quickly as possible from the area.

Or he might he might have felt frustrated enough to find another victim. I accept what you about the risk of being seen but witnesses at the time talk about an almost deserted street.

Its not feasable to consider the sugestion that because he had been interrupted his ultimate goal had not been fulfilled. I have already stated that it would have taken a matter on moments to carry out any mutilations, and if this killer was organ harvesting surley he would not have picked this location to carry ot a murder and then remove organs

Yes it is. Not as a fact but as a possibility.

It doesn’t matter how short a time it would have taken to carry out mutilations. If the killer was interrupted just as he’d cut her throat he would have stopped. And it doesn’t follow that if he took organs from one victim then he would have attempted the same with all of them. He might have viewed this location as higher risk so the plan might have been quick kill plus some abdominal mutilation then escape.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I don’t understand why the resistance to the obviously possible suggestion that Stride was a ripper victim. Of course it’s possible that she wasn’t but it’s something that cannot be proven or disproven.

[Trevor Marriott]

And I accept the possibility that she might not have been a ripper victim but she certainly might have been one for obvious reasons. Statistically alone she must be a likely victim though? Killed during a series of murders of street women. All with their throats cut. All within the same small area and with an entirely plausible possible reason for the lack of mutilation and a murder with mutilation occurring 15 minutes walk away and less than an hour later.

Were there any ripper murders committed as eary as Strides murder? No there was not

Were any of the murders in street locations where people were moving about in numbers? No there were not

Throat cutting does not make it a common factor as this was an adopted method to kill in Victorian times

If it would have taken the killer moments to cut her throat then it would have also only taken moments to stab the victim several times in the abdomen. Too much emphasis is being placed on the lack of mutilations due to the sugestion that he was disturbed.

Phillips and Blackwell could only say that they belived the wound to the neck was made with a smaller knife than that had previously been used, and that is consistent with the small wound to the neck.

Most of the other victims were almost decapitated by what would seem to have been one deep cut and swipe of the knife across the throat, not a small wound to the neck

Kidney was convicted on one occassion of assult on her, although I am led to believe others were reported which didnt get to court.

Statistiscs are not always reliable

We see no evidence of two attacks on women on the same night and in close proximity to each other

Look at it another way I am playing devils advocate with regards to the suggestion that he was interrupted. He would have had to make a quick exit that might have resulted in him being seen, with that in mind and given the fact that he had carried out a murder which is what he presumably set out to do, why would he run the risk of wandering the streets looking for another victim knowing that the police would be on high alert from the discovery of Strides body ,knowing that he might have been seen, surley he would have wanted to distance himself as quickly as possible from the area.

Its not feasable to consider the sugestion that because he had been interrupted his ultimate goal had not been fulfilled. I have already stated that it would have taken a matter on moments to carry out any mutilations, and if this killer was organ harvesting surley he would not have picked this location to carry ot a murder and then remove organs

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

The time of the murder

Less than an hour before Eddowes? Kelly what? An hour or so later? Was the ripper on the clock?

The location of the murder

This is the main reason that I have for doubt. It’s seems the riskiest of locations.

The weapon used

Were Phillips or Blackwell specific on the weapon used apart from stating the unlikeliness of the knife that was found being the one employed?

Out of the canonical 5 the only murder committed South of Whitechapel Road

Was the Whitechapel Road an invisible barrier?

The neck wound was less severe than the other victims due to a smaller knife being used by the killer

Is it explicitly stated that a smaller knife was used? Couldn't being interrupted account for the reduced severity

Kidney had a previous conviction for assaulting Stride

It’s a quibble but was he actually convicted? I’ve no doubt that he’d previously been violent toward her though.

Inquest testimony shows they had an argument shortly before her murder

Agreed.

and it is not just me that believes Stride was not a Ripper victim

Here is a quote from Stewart Evans
"‘The evidence surrounding the Stride murder is very problematical, and extremely confusing when read in full. The lasting impression is of a domestic dispute-related murder. On the Tuesday before her death, Stride walked out of the home she shared with Michael Kidney, a brutal, heavy-drinking labourer, who was known to have frequently assaulted her. The case does not bear the distinctive stamp of a Ripper killing."

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And I accept the possibility that she might not have been a ripper victim but she certainly might have been one for obvious reasons. Statistically alone she must be a likely victim though? Killed during a series of murders of street women. All with their throats cut. All within the same small area and with an entirely plausible possible reason for the lack of mutilation and a murder with mutilation occurring 15 minutes walk away and less than an hour later.

[FrankO]

Herlock, if I remember well, Michael suggested that the sound of the pony cart might have been Eagle returning with PC’s Lamb & 426H. And he suggested that the heavy, measured tramp might have been that of Kozebrodski.

Actually neither are true Franko,...

Regarding the sound of the pony cart, you’re correct, Michael. In reality, you didn’t suggest that the sound Mortimer heard were PC’s Lamb & 426H returning to the yard together with Eagle. What you did suggest (in post #877) is that it was the sound of bootsteps of a few men, like maybe Johnson and PC 426H. And this really boils down to the same thing: you suggested that Mortimer might have mistaken the sound of the pony cart for people walking by her house.

This is what you wrote:
Im wondering whether the so called cart and horse Fanny thought she heard a few minutes after going to bed was actually the bootsteps of a few men. Maybe Johnson and the constable?


Regarding the sound of the heavy, measured tramp you did, in fact, suggest they might have been those of Isaac Kozebrodski (post #242 Sequence of comings & goings).

This is what you wrote there:
And Id add Fanny didnt see anyone at 12:45ish, she heard boots which she labelled as policemans. They could easily have been Issac K's.

Even though we can be fairly sure that Kozebrodski didn’t pass Mortimer’s house looking for a copper. After all, he said he went for a policeman in the direction of Grove Street and the shortest way to Grove Street was via Fairclough Street, not up Berner Street (and passed Mortimer’s house) to Commercial Road. Had that been the case, the logical thing for him to have said would have been that he went to look for one in the direction of Commercial Road.

Thanks for weighing in on what you feel is an acceptable argument, however your just extrapolating on something I didnt say and still referencing me for some reason..

I’m referencing you for the reason that you suggested it, as shown above. If you don’t feel it’s an acceptable argument, I’d like to know why you feel that.

I’m sure Michael is going to stick to his interpretations, Herlock. He thinks that Mortimer should have heard the whole Schwarz incident, if it had really taken place. But this can’t mean anything, as with the alternative that he suggests as the truth (i.e. Diemshutz arrived around 12:39 on his pony cart and discovered the body then, etc.), Mortimer didn’t hear anything, either, other than the heavy, measured tramp of a policeman, which, according to Michael may have been Kozebrodski, who didn’t pass her house.

I see that its not been plain enough, this statement of Fannys suggests that her most vigilant period of the street during the half hour was the last 10 minutes. Being at her door off and on before that time, she may have missed something, sure...however it is during that time that she hears boots. She hears boots. She sees no-one...which means? Yeah, she is indoors at that time.

You’re not responding to the point I’m making. You claimed Mortimer must have heard the Schwartz incident, as – you correctly state – she was indoors at that time. I’m saying that the scenario you propose also produced loud noises, shouting, running, someone walking by her house. Why must Mortimer have heard the Schwartz incident, but not the noises produced by what you propose?

In the alternative situation Mortimer didn’t hear Kozebrodski leave the yard at about 12:40 in search of a policeman. That, however, is possible, as he didn’t say that he ran, nor that he shouted while running in search of a copper. But she didn’t hear 2 other Jews (the ones who would bring back Spooner) leave the yard a little later, either, and we know that they sure weren’t silent, as they were shouting out "Murder" and "Police." while running down the street.

When exactly did they begin yelling? Where were they? You dont know specifically.

I do know, however, they were already yelling before they passed Spooner and he was standing only some 90 yards away from Mortimer’s door. Besides, the couple seen by Mortimer didn’t see or hear anything of the kind while they were standing at the corner of the street before one o'clock.

[Trevor Marriott]

Like?

The time of the murder
The location of the murder
The weapon used
Out of the canonical 5 the only murder committed South of Whitechapel Road
The neck wound was less severe than the other victims due to a smaller knife being used by the killer
Kidney had a previous conviction for assaulting Stride
Inquest testimony shows they had an argument shortly before her murder

and it is not just me that believes Stride was not a Ripper victim

Here is a quote from Stewart Evans
"‘The evidence surrounding the Stride murder is very problematical, and extremely confusing when read in full. The lasting impression is of a domestic dispute-related murder. On the Tuesday before her death, Stride walked out of the home she shared with Michael Kidney, a brutal, heavy-drinking labourer, who was known to have frequently assaulted her. The case does not bear the distinctive stamp of a Ripper killing."

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

But you are forgetting all the other points which makes Strides murder different to all the others.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Like?

[Trevor Marriott]

The throat cutting as you say would have been a matter of 2 seconds work. We can't prove interruption of course but equally we can't disprove it. So there's no strong reason for suggesting that wasn't a ripper victim based on the lack of mutilation.

But you are forgetting all the other points which makes Strides murder different to all the others.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

There is no disputing that at least 3 murders were committed by the same killer who was dubbed Jack the Ripper, and that is enough victims to catergorize the killer as a serial killer, but from the evidence surrounding Strides murder she was not one of them.

There is always the possibility that whoever killed Stride was interrupted, but that cannot be proven, because if Stride was killed by another whoever that person was, had to be in her company firstly to engage with her and secondly then to be with her in the yard. the cutting of the throat would have only taken a moment.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

The throat cutting as you say would have been a matter of 2 seconds work. We can't prove interruption of course but equally we can't disprove it. So there's no strong reason for suggesting that wasn't a ripper victim based on the lack of mutilation.

[Trevor Marriott]

Or those that don’t want to believe that it was the same killer might ignore the possibility of interruption to promote their own idea. If interruption is possible and it most definitely was then there’s no point in stating the obvious differences because we have a plausible possible reason for them. I don’t see why some have an aversion to the very simple idea that Jack the Ripper was a serial killer. Not as interesting as a conspiracy of course.

There is no disputing that at least 3 murders were committed by the same killer who was dubbed Jack the Ripper, and that is enough victims to catergorize the killer as a serial killer, but from the evidence surrounding Strides murder she was not one of them.

There is always the possibility that whoever killed Stride was interrupted, but that cannot be proven, because if Stride was killed by another whoever that person was, had to be in her company firstly to engage with her and secondly then to be with her in the yard. the cutting of the throat would have only taken a moment.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk