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Stride..a victim?

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  • Originally posted by caz View Post

    He's in control because he has found a passive prospective victim in Eddowes. Who knows how he'd have reacted with one who was unexpectedly stubborn or feisty?
    Was Kate Eddowes a passive type of character?

    Assuming BS Man existed, he may have left the stage to Stride's killer, waiting in the wings to play the Good Samaritan. If she tried to give him the brush-off too, after successfully getting rid of BS Man, her killer could quickly have turned nasty. A similar scenario played out when Sally Anne Bowman was murdered in September 2005. Her killer, Mark Dixie, waited while his prospective victim [the second woman he targeted that night] was having an argument with her boyfriend. When the boyfriend finally drove off, leaving her alone outside her house, Dixie struck with exceptional violence. He then waited near the body for any sounds coming from the nearby houses, before mutilating her while the coast was clear. The boyfriend was immediately suspected, and might have been convicted if the DNA evidence hadn't cleared him. Dixie was eventually caught when he had to give a DNA sample after a pub brawl.
    If BS existed, but was not Stride's killer, we are faced with accepting that the biggest manhunt in history to date, failed to positively identify either men, or even produce a good candidate.

    You tell me. We know she was there, so she must have had a reason. Did she see it as a place of refuge, perhaps, from some man she had met earlier, who had become a pest? Was she going to hide in the yard when BS Man spotted her and waded in?
    It has something to do with Bricklayer's Arms Man, who is all over her at the pub, yet not of her socio-economic class.
    The phrase, 'that's Leather Apron getting round you', is not just some uncanny coincidence.
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • Originally posted by caz View Post

      When I regularly attended the meetings of the Whitechapel Society, formerly known as the Cloak & Dagger Club, mostly held in pubs that were there in 1888, I don't remember hearing any sounds from outside the building, including passing buses, cars and taxis. I suspect the only audible sounds, while we were all inside chatting, drinking or listening to the guest speaker, would have been police or ambulance sirens.

      Were the walls of the Berner Street club so thin that those inside would necessarily have heard two or three muffled screams, or a one-off shout, coming from outside the building? What about the arrival of Louis's pony and cart? Would that have been instantly audible from inside the club?

      Love,

      Caz
      X
      I have quoted Mrs Diemschitz on this, twice recently.

      Either Fanny, or even her husband (who apparently was awake), or someone at #30 would probably have heard something too.
      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • Originally posted by caz View Post

        So how many posters have you actually encountered, who have argued that interruption in the Stride case is 'the only game in town'?

        I hope you didn't invest in too many labels. You might want to return the whole pack and ask Amazon for a refund.
        Being a Conspiracy Theorist, I tend to exaggerate a little

        So plausibility is only a trap for others to fall into?
        I know where the edge of the vortex is - others don't even know there is one
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by c.d. View Post

          Is it just me or is there a joke there somewhere?

          c.d.
          Oh, so you Plausibilists do have some sense of humor then?
          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

            That's one of the great unanswerable's though, sadly. Schwartz and Fanny seem like absolutely nailed on witnesses, but totally absent. I imagine the reasoning existed somewhere, but is now lost to us. Sinister or otherwise, it's gone.
            It was due to the rift between the Leman street police, and senior investigators.
            The later had faith in Schwartz. Apparently the Leman street police thought otherwise. The Star:

            In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.

            The later did not have faith in Packer. Apparently the Leman street police thought otherwise. Evening News, Oct 20:

            The police called on Mr. Packer, of 44, Berner-street, yesterday morning. Mr. Packer, when asked his opinion as to where the murderer lodged - for he had seen him several times before the fatal night - remarked, "In the next street." It is considered he is not far wrong in his conjecture; but the police do not deem it prudent to say what steps are being taken in the matter.

            Presumably there were differing opinions on Fanny Mortimer, also. Possibly due to a potential clash with the testimony of Schwartz.
            Baxter decided to leave them all out to keep the peace, and avoid adverse political outcomes.
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • . It has something to do with Bricklayer's Arms Man, who is all over her at the pub, yet not of her socio-economic class.
              The phrase, 'that's Leather Apron getting round you', is not just some uncanny coincidence
              You're reading too much into a throwaway comment. How many blokes would have been called Jack The Ripper or Leather Apron when they were out with a woman? I bet it happened numerous times.
              Regards

              Herlock




              “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
              As night descends upon this fabled street:
              A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
              The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
              Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
              And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

              Comment


              • .
                Either Fanny, or even her husband (who apparently was awake), or someone at #30 would probably have heard something too
                Probably? Possibly? Perhaps? By no means certainly?

                Your using an unknown to make a point.
                Regards

                Herlock




                “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                As night descends upon this fabled street:
                A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                Comment


                • . I know where the edge of the vortex is - others don't even know there is one
                  You appear to consider yourself cleverer than the rest of us NBFN. I have know way of knowing if that's true or not.

                  If you employed the emboldened sentence more often you'd avoid the rabbit-holes.
                  Regards

                  Herlock




                  “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                  As night descends upon this fabled street:
                  A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                  The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                  Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                  And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                    You're reading too much into a throwaway comment. How many blokes would have been called Jack The Ripper or Leather Apron when they were out with a woman? I bet it happened numerous times.
                    Back from your drawing board already, ready to continue on with your reactive posting style I see.

                    Here's an idea; why don't you go ahead and quote both Best and Gardner, gives us your thoughts on the situation, and let everyone decide for themselves whether at least one of the men had serious concerns regarding Stride and the man she was with.

                    The situation is, Liz Stride ends up dead a couple of hours later, and one or men are responsible for that death. If one or more of those 3 men at the pub had concerns about what they were seeing, trivialising their words is not going to help determine what happened.
                    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      Probably? Possibly? Perhaps? By no means certainly?

                      Your using an unknown to make a point.
                      You said interruption was a 50/50 chance. Is anyone else here allowed to make estimates?
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                        You appear to consider yourself cleverer than the rest of us NBFN. I have know way of knowing if that's true or not.

                        If you employed the emboldened sentence more often you'd avoid the rabbit-holes.
                        I gave reasons when estimating the chance of interruption having a occurred, and both the reasons and numbers are up for debate.
                        In other words - I offered something. You made the arbitrary claim that I had pulled a figure out of thin air, and then just asserted your own number as being much more reasonable.
                        And that's your style - almost purely reactive.
                        When was the last time you quoted something from the press reports, and built an argument around it?
                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          Probably? Possibly? Perhaps? By no means certainly?

                          Your using an unknown to make a point.
                          It's just not cricket!

                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          Perhaps the killer had hidden behind the gate then left when Diemschutz went inside?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                            About five minutes to one o'clock this morning a youth about twenty years of age named Joseph Koster was accosted by a little boy who came running up to him as he was passing on the opposite side of 40 Berner street, used by the International Socialist Club, and told him that a woman was lying in the gateway next to the club, with her throat cut. Koster immediately ran across the road and saw a woman lying on her sidein the gateway leading into Dutfield's stabling and van premises. The gate which is a large wooden one, was partly opened, and the woman lying partly in the opening and on the street. He immediately roused the neighbours, and by the aid of a candle it was seen that the woman's throat was cut open very nearly from one ear to the other, and her lips were drawn up as if she had suffered sharp pain. She was dressed in black and appeared to be in mourning. She wore a black bonnet, elastic sided boots, and dark stockings. To her breast was a small bouquet of flowers, and in her left hand she had a small packet of scented cachous.

                            Although this story was dispensed with early on, remnants of it remained, and there can be no doubt that this Joseph Koster was real.

                            Lewis, who is now found to have been on the spot rather than Koster, is the steward at the Socialist Club at No. 40...

                            Heshberg: The body was not found by Koster, but by a man whose name I do not know, a man who goes out with a pony and barrow...
                            Evening News, Oct 1:

                            Some three doors from the gateway where the body of the first victim was discovered, I saw a clean, respectable-looking woman chatting with one or two neighbours. She was apparently the wife of a well-to-do artisan, and formed a strong contrast to many of those around her. I got into conversation with her and found that she was one of the first on the spot.

                            "I was just about going to bed, sir, when I heard a call for the police. I ran to the door, and before I could open it I heard somebody say, 'Come out quick; there's a poor woman here that's had ten inches of cold steel in her.' I hurried out, and saw some two or three people standing in the gateway. Lewis, the man who looks after the Socialist Club at No. 40, was there, and his wife.

                            "Then I see a sight that turned me all sick and cold. There was the murdered woman a-lying on her side, with her throat cut across till her head seemed to be hanging by a bit of skin. Her legs was drawn up under her, and her head and the upper part of her body was soaked in blood. She was dressed in black as if she was in mourning for somebody.


                            Was that somebody, Joseph Koster?

                            More importantly, who is this man, and where does he live?
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by DJA View Post

                              Reference please.

                              Every Jewish business owner my family has worked for were practicing Jews.One, a restaurant, The Broadway in Camberwell operated without the owners on a Friday night.
                              Not one was in a "Jewish area",like Berner Street.
                              Extra holidays and an early Friday knock off in the cooler months.Yahoo!

                              Incidentally,I grew up with many WW2 Jewish refugees.
                              Two boarded with us.
                              An enormous mansion,diagonally opposite our house,acted as a rooming house for Jewish families.My best friend Tom resided there.
                              I spoke Yiddish as a child.Mum put a stop to that.Irish descent.
                              Well Diemshcutz for one was trading on the Sabbath. East End Jewish radicals would sportingly "bait the shul" which scandalised the orthodox community, which sometimes provoked disorder. Jewish values were changing, I'd wager there were some Jewish shop owners who traded on the Sabbath. But it's irrelevant really, Mr Rogan has now provided another reference which suggests Diemschutz took the time from Harris's tobacco shop. With regard to the direction in which he was travelling prior to entering Berner Street, that will remain a mystery, the shortest route was not always the safest. Furthermore, even if he took the time from the baker's shop as I said, clock shops were wound religiously, I doubt it had stopped. It's a bit of coincidence that out of all the various points in time that clock could have stopped at it happened to stop within 25 minutes of the actual time Diemschutz entered Berner Street. I doubt it.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                                You said interruption was a 50/50 chance. Is anyone else here allowed to make estimates?
                                Mine was just a way of saying she might or might not have been a victim. There's no way of putting an accurate or meaningful figure on it. It's just an opinion.
                                Regards

                                Herlock




                                “...A yellow fog swirls past the window-pane
                                As night descends upon this fabled street:
                                A lonely hansom splashes through the rain,
                                The ghostly gas lamps fail at twenty feet.
                                Here, though the world explode, these two survive,
                                And it is always eighteen ninety-five.”

                                Comment

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