Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Malcolm X]

i've found LA DE DA, he's the Duke of Earl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bw55sR4ec8&feature=list_related&playnext=1&list=AVGxdCwVVULXen3fgUm8JJ7L8tCPQKMkXY

[DVV]

Here is the real McCoy who can curl up his moustache at will and is obviously an insane foreigner :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4Bh_arF-E

[Malcolm X]

Hi Ben,

You talk in general terms about documented 'intruder' killers, whereas I was asking for specifics that would have applied in Hutch's case, if you have him as an intruder who kills Mary Kelly.

A vital question here is whether Kelly and Hutch were complete strangers or known to each other. Was Hutch familiar with Miller's Court and its comings and goings or entirely unfamiliar?

I just cannot see him needing to wait outside in the court for 45 minutes if he knew Mary was alone in her room. What would he have been waiting for exactly? And what would have made him decide the time was finally right to let himself into the room? He must have been watching and waiting for someone to come out, because it all fits and the alternative makes no sense.

Love,

Caz
X

no one can answer this i'm afraid, it just makes so much sense that he was waiting there for someone to leave and for her to go to sleep afterwards.

[Garry Wroe]

I just cannot see him [Hutchinson] needing to wait outside in the court for 45 minutes if he knew Mary was alone in her room. What would he have been waiting for exactly?

Why does a burglar wait until a family is sleeping before entering a property?

And what would have made him decide the time was finally right to let himself into the room?

Assuming for the sake of argument that Hutchinson did enter Kelly’s room, he would have waited until such time as he felt it safe to do so. Just like our burglar, he would have minimized the risk of disturbing anyone or being disturbed himself.

This is basic common sense. The killer could have committed his offences during daylight hours had he so chosen, at a time when potential victims were far more plentiful. Instead he elected to kill during the small hours. Although this strategy meant that he had far fewer potential victims at his disposal, it also dramatically increased his chances of escaping detection. It is the principle of risk and reward.

He must have been watching and waiting for someone to come out, because it all fits and the alternative makes no sense.

Although I tend to agree with your basic premise, it is by no means the only explanation that makes sense. He may simply have been waiting until the streets were largely deserted before making his move. He may have observed Mrs Cox flitting in and out of the court. He may have been unnerved by the appearance of Sarah Lewis. He may also have feared an unexpected appearance by Barnett or Julia. We simply don’t know. But the fact that he subsequently claimed to have spent a few minutes directly outside Kelly’s room shortly before three o’clock is strongly suggestive that this was the time at which he entered the room, if indeed he did enter it. Either way, that he neglected to disclose such detail to Abberline is extraordinary, and not a little suspicious.

[DVV]

- did he go in at 3am after someone else left, or did he walk off to return later at 3.55am.

Excellent question. Both are plausible (see Garry's reply to Caz). In fact, there are several possibilities, depends whether he was known to her or not, and if he was, did he strike as soon as he got in or not ?

[Malcolm X]

Here is the real McCoy who can curl up his moustache at will and is obviously an insane foreigner :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4Bh_arF-E

ha ha

Jacob Levy looks as though he's too small for LA DE DA, 5FT 3'' and only 9.5 stone, Jacob Levy is tiny, really tiny, i was this weight when i was 15.

``he didn't look as if he could hurt another person``, plus he had a slim build, well this is not G.Chapman either, he looks medium build, but he's wearing a tight jacket like Charlie Chaplin so this is fooling you....he also looks nasty as well.

you see, it's not just one or two things that's wrong with these top suspects, there's quite a few other things as well.

strangely enough, GH is not a shrinking violet like Schwartz, he's much more in LA DE DA's face, a bit like Broadshoulders, i cant detect much with him, but from his statement he seems ``durable``, it seems like from his statement that he's holding back, because if he stooped to stare in LA DE DA's face, this is definitely an aggressive move.... not much i know, just sort of something!

[Malcolm X]

Excellent question. Both are plausible (see Garry's reply to Caz). In fact, there are several possibilities, depends whether he was known to her or not, and if he was, did he strike as soon as he got in or not ?

yea', i think you have to go with what feels right, not a lot else that i can say

i doubt he struck as soon as he got in, because if invited in rather than walking off, this means she died at 3am.... so you can forget OH MURDER

i expect he broke in and killed her instantly, as she was waking up at 4am, or he killed her after having sex with her, from back at 3am.

you see, he was deffo outside from 2 to 3, so after this is anybodies guess, but the clue maybe OH MURDER at 4am, you see, 3am is still a bit early to kill, he's much safer at 4am.... especially if Bowyer is still around and regardless of all the twaddle being said, i expect some of it was true.... or even that Ventura woman.

[Wickerman]

Jon,
The short answer to your last question to me,how could a thin brown moustache grow into a bushy red one? is that two different suggestions were made by two different persons,to two different receptive witnesses.

Harry.
When you brought up Schwartz, I was anticipating you making a comparison between BS-man and Blotchy.
I was simply offering that up as a possibility.

Regards, Jon S.

[Malcolm X]

Harry.
When you brought up Schwartz, I was anticipating you making a comparison between BS-man and Blotchy.
I was simply offering that up as a possibility.

Regards, Jon S.

If you take a 50% error in sighting accuracy, could be more depending on how dark it is, Blotchy could easily be BS

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon
Nobody can confirm Bond on this count, even not Bond himself.
He didn't know at what time Kelly had her last meal, and you don't know either.
His estimation of MJK ToD is therefore baseless, and the investigators would have been stupid to dismiss or favour a witness accordingly. Cos indeed, Bond's TOD is a mere speculation : he speculated that Mary ate at around 10:00 or 11:00, God knows why.
For the rest, he admitted rigidity could have set in within 6...or 12 hours.

You have no idea how this works do you.
No medical opinion is precise. The police needed one they could trust, this is why Warren requested Bond to study the murders.

Bond's report was specifically requested to assist the police with their enquiries, not to file away as a curiosity. The police intended to use it and this is what Anderson did due to the failure of Macdonald to provide a time of death.

There is no-one on the police force who can question the opinion of Dr. Bond, he is the professional not them. Once given that report is used by the detective force regardless of what time Kelly ate her last meal. That is completely irrelevant.
The scientific accuracy in the 19th century of this report is not the point. The fact that it appeared precisely at the time of the shift in focus by the police is the important issue, considering it takes the pressure of the Hutchinson side of the investigation.

That is what matters.

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

...It did survive and was submitted to Scotland Yard along with Hutchinson’s witness statement.

Phew...!! thanks for that Garry - thought I was caught in an outer space where people use a different sourcebook and meet the Ripper everytime they go shopping.

Gentlemen, I think Stewart needs to bang your two heads together...


The 'report' you two are talking about is only a 'day-end' report that every officer filled out at the end of every day. It is written on stationary, an interrogation or interview is written on a form for that purpose.
Take a look at Hutchinson's voluntary statement, it is a form not stationary. Forms are for internal use only, not for sending to someone.

As I already explained, Abberline's first assignment that day (12th) was the Inquest, that is why this is the first subject.
Then appeared Hutchinson, not that Abberline was present, he wasn't, but he is putting events in sequence because what followed was the interrogation.

Abberline is forwarding Hutchinson's initial statement along with his "days-end" report to his superiors because he has no use for it himself, he has created his own interrogation file which stays with him.

The Interrogation file is missing!

I'm surprised you had not checked with Stewart before you go patting each other on the back, ...silly me, what would Stewart know.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Jon, although I have the utmost respect for SPE, I must say I'm hardly impressed by your post.
Nothing is missing, you're plain wrong, which is no big problem, alas you're even not fair enough to admit that the Sunday sighting could easily be mentioned in the report that has survived.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Hence, when the Star reported the police opinion that they subscribed to a later time of death to that provided by Bond, I think we can rationally conclude that they weren't lying about this detail for the hell of it.

Ben, The Star do not report police opinion, and what they do report is wrong. Plain and simple.

I'm saying that they concluded, either collectively or as a result of an autocratic decree from on high, that the likely time of death was later than the 1.00-2.00am suggested by Bond.

Ben, Bond's report WAS the autocratic decree, it came from Commissioner Warren through Anderson.
Confirmation of receipt of the report was sent to the Secretary of State and offering of thanks to Dr. Bond;
"..to thank him for the valuable assistance he has thus rendered in the investigation of the murders."

The report was put into effect, as implied in the above words to the Secretary of State on the 13th.

Anderson terminated the request to Bond with the words;
" He (Warren) feels that your eminence as an expert in such cases - and it is entirely in that capacity that the present case is referred to you, will make your opinion specially valuable".

The intention to act on the report is clear, even before the report was created.

The opinions of Bond were deemed essential to give direction to the murder investigation. The decision had already been made, nothing was open for discussion about the reliability or accuracy.
No-one in the force contradicted Bond's estimated time of death, that is not how the system works.

It is precisely because this report appears in the hands of Scotland Yard at the time of the change of focus that we now have a genuine, bonafide, police directive to explain the shift.
Now we know it had nothing to do with Hutchinson's story. That being the case there are no grounds for claiming the shift was due to Hutch being dismissed as a liar.

Garry/Ben, your Titanic "Hutchinson dismissed as a liar" hypothesis has just hit the Iceberg of Bond's medical report. And we know which way this ship is headed now...

Regards, Jon S.

[Wickerman]

I just cannot see him needing to wait outside in the court for 45 minutes if he knew Mary was alone in her room. What would he have been waiting for exactly?

Well Caz, for what its worth, I agree with what Stewart E. said a long time ago. Hutchinson was just waiting for her last client to leave to approach her for somewhere to doss tonight. Nothing more suspicious than that.

If you recall, Hutchinson said he waited 3/4 hr "to see if they came down".
I do wonder if Abberline asked "why?" I think anybody would, he must have.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

Jon, you really think you're on something here with Dr Bond ?
If so, I'm sorry for you.

Would you tell us by which marvel Bond's ToD would be accurate, and considered so by the investigators ?
They knew full well how uncertain were such estimations, at least since the Chapman case, although Phillips was on the spot only one hour after the murder.