Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[Garry Wroe]

Walter Dew does not at all support your flawed hypothesis. Dew makes it abundantly clear he thinks Hutchinson made a mistake, "not necessarily as to a person, but as to date and time". Does that sound like he is calling Hutchinson a liar?

I never said that Dew called Hutchinson a liar, Jon. I said that he ‘rejected Hutchinson’s account’. There is a difference.

Still, we seem to be making progress of sorts. You now appear to be acknowledging that Hutchinson’s story was dismissed by the authorities. According to Dew, Hutchinson may have mixed up the time or date of his alleged sighting of Kelly. At any event, this means that Hutchinson did not meet Kelly on Commercial Street at the time specified in his witness statement, and that Kelly did not encounter Astrakhan shortly thereafter. In other words, with Hutchinson’s claims factored out of the equation, we have no evidence whatsoever that Kelly returned to the streets after having gone indoors with Blotchy.

So what exactly is your argument?

… as the investigation wound down, over the years, Anderson realized that Bond may have erred …

And you know this for a fact?

… That Kelly had actually died later around 4:00 am, and Hutchinson left the scene one full hour before she was killed …

This would be the Hutchinson whose story had been discredited by investigators?

… Therefore Hutchinson's suspect was not necessarily the killer.

You’re still not getting it, Jon. Hutchinson’s ‘suspect’ was dismissed along with Hutchinson’s story. According to Dew, neither Hutchinson nor Astrakhan played any part in the events immediately preceding Kelly’s death. And since Anderson implied that someone other than Hutchinson was ‘the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer’, he too was rejecting the alleged Astrakhan sighting. It aint rocket science.

[Garry Wroe]

So you're saying that when Anderson stated on more than one occasion that the "only person who ever had a good view of the murderer" was a Jewish man, he wasn't being entirely truthful; because there was another, arguably better witness who was neither Jewish nor male, who would have been ideal for the task of viewing the suspect if only she could be traced? In which case, I have to wonder how Anderson was able to reconcile his belief in Blotchy's culpability with his supposed conviction that 24-year-old Jewish Aaron Kosminski was responsible!

Anderson's words make it clear, Ben, that the Seaside Home identification would have been sufficient to secure a conviction. Neither the Cox nor Lawende sightings could have resulted in such an outcome. Thus Anderson's witness must have been Schwartz - the only witness who saw an attack being perpetrated on a victim shortly before the victim's death. Yet again, therefore, Jon's manipulation of events in order to substantiate a theory is baseless.

[DVV]

It did survive and was submitted to Scotland Yard along with Hutchinson’s witness statement.

Phew...!! thanks for that Garry - thought I was caught in an outer space where people use a different sourcebook and meet the Ripper everytime they go shopping.

[Malcolm X]

no, if Abberline believed GH at first, then he thought that LA DE DA was JTR, not just the last bloke to see her alive.

``he did not appear like someone that could hurt another person`` or whatever he said!...... why did he say this..... sorry no, you have no proof that LA DE DA killed her, because this is still too early for a 4am murder!

GH said this because he wants you and i to think that this bloke is JTR, it's a Subliminal Message, along with Sullan looking, carrying a parcel etc, .

why did Abberline think that GH was talking rubbish later on ? because along with Bond, Blotchy Face looks far more like Sailor boy/broadshoulders and LA DE DA looks more rediculous as time passes by...... this therefore only occured to Abberline after the dust had settled, as it does with us, very soon after they went for walkies down Petticoat Lane.

[Garry Wroe]

No problem, Dave. Maybe someone should rename this thread 'Make It Up As You Go Along.'

[Ben]

Thanks, Garry.

I think we can safely dispense with the notion that Cox's evidence was prioritized purely because of Bond's suggested time of death. Indeed, the following extract from the Star, 13th November, flatly refutes it:

"As to the time of the murder, it is now generally admitted that Kelly could not, as some have stated, have been alive on Friday morning. The police have come to the conclusion that the woman who made the most positive statement to this effect must have been mistaken as to the day. Dr. Phillips's evidence, together with that of Mary Ann Cox, Elizabeth Prater, and others, proves that the murder was committed SHORTLY AFTER THREE O'CLOCK- a fact which brings into startling relief the murderer's coolness, caution, and tenacity of purpose."

[GregBaron]

Is it possible?

Anderson's words make it clear, Ben, that the Seaside Home identification would have been sufficient to secure a conviction. Neither the Cox nor Lawende sightings could have resulted in such an outcome. Thus Anderson's witness must have been Schwartz - the only witness who saw an attack being perpetrated on a victim shortly before the victim's death. Yet again, therefore, Jon's manipulation of events in order to substantiate a theory is baseless.

Hi all,

This may be crazy but since I have Jacob Levy on the brain, this occurred to me. What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible?

We then later have him identifying his cousin, where the perpetrator's shock of recognition is easily envisioned.

Can this be ruled out?


Greg

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello Greg.

"What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible?"

If this had happened, I wonder whether Joseph might not be in trouble for not saying something in connection with Kate's inquest? And why did he not intervene rather than beating a hasty retreat, even if only, "Jacob! Leave that poor woman alone and go home at once."?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Speculation I know....

Hello Greg.

"What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible?"

If this had happened, I wonder whether Joseph might not be in trouble for not saying something in connection with Kate's inquest? And why did he not intervene rather than beating a hasty retreat, even if only, "Jacob! Leave that poor woman alone and go home at once."?

Cheers.
LC

I don't know the answers Lynn. Perhaps he was afraid of Jacob or already suspected him for other murders and would be in trouble for not revealing this sooner. Yes, he would be in jeopardy for his Inquest statement but again, perhaps police worked a deal behind closed doors for him to receive immunity if he made the identification. Just a thought.

At the Inquest, even though he didn't see the couple, he somehow declared that he was 5'3" which is spot on for cousin Jacob. Or more precisely, I think he said he was 3 inches higher than the woman. So he saw the woman and the height of both yet he didn't see anything............?

Lawende, next to him, somehow saw more...

Hmmm, my imagination runs wild........


Greg

[lynn cates]

sighting

Hello Greg. Yes, there is more to his sighting than meets the eye and some of that was discussed in the "Rip" article.

3 inches taller would be very revealing PROVIDED he accurately assessed Kate's height.

Cheers.
LC

[Malcolm X]

Hello Greg. Yes, there is more to his sighting than meets the eye and some of that was discussed in the "Rip" article.

3 inches taller would be very revealing PROVIDED he accurately assessed Kate's height.

Cheers.
LC

and to suddenly shoot off home scared, because you've seen Eddowes and someone else you dont know is odd.... very odd.... uuuuuuum, yes i noticed this 2 days ago, he felt suddenly scared, awkward, uneasy!

this needs another thread, how can you be scared of a neighbour like this, unless your neighbout is a bit of a nutter and has caused you trouble before! could be.

i doubt he thought he was JTR, not yet anyway, maybe he was a violent nutter and best to pretend that you hadn't seen him.

just food for thought only

[Garry Wroe]

This may be crazy but since I have Jacob Levy on the brain, this occurred to me. What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible? We then later have him identifying his cousin, where the perpetrator's shock of recognition is easily envisioned. Can this be ruled out?

According to Anderson, his witness declined to swear to the suspect on learning that the suspect was a fellow Jew. I rather doubt that Levy would have been unaware of his cousin's religious persuasion.

[GregBaron]

Exact heights...

Hello Greg. Yes, there is more to his sighting than meets the eye and some of that was discussed in the "Rip" article.

3 inches taller would be very revealing PROVIDED he accurately assessed Kate's height.

Cheers.
LC

[Coroner] What height was the man? - I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high. I cannot give any further description of them. I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together.
By the Jury: The point in the passage where the man and woman were standing was not well lighted. On the contrary, I think it was badly lighted then, but the light is much better now.
By Mr. Crawford: Nothing in what I saw excited my suspicion as to the intentions of the man. I did not hear a word that he uttered to the woman.
[Coroner] Your fear was rather about yourself? - Not exactly. (Laughter.)

Here's the inquest statement Lynn. Our non-seeing Levy posited the exact height of both participants in poor lighting! Quite an accurate observation for one who saw very little.

I also find his answer not exactly to be interesting. What was his fear then?

Is the ripper article you refer to the Scott Nelson article?


Greg

[caz]

I've just had a thought. (Don't titter at the back there.) If Hutch was there at all that night, and neither mistaken about the date nor inventing the whole story to grab himself a bit of the action and perhaps make some money from the police or the papers, we can at least accept he was telling the truth about his lengthy 45 minute wait. What would he gain from making this supposedly fruitless vigil a minute longer than it actually was?

This leaves Hutch theorists with more explaining to do, because the only good reason for waiting outside like that, if his purpose was to go inside, would be if she had someone else in the room with her all that time. We know by the defence wounds that she was not completely unconscious through drink, nor in a deep sleep, at the point of attack. With a killer like this he'd have cut her throat before she knew what was happening if that were the case. So it's not as if she was alone and the killer was waiting in the court all that time for her to fall asleep (with the risk of being seen by all and sundry). Besides, how could he have been sure from the outside if and when she was finally asleep? If she knew him and trusted him, he didn't need to wait if she was alone. If she didn't know or trust him, she'd have likely yelled blue murder if he let himself in while she was still awake.

So how does the intruder scenario featuring Hutch actually work, if he did indeed have to wait for 45 long minutes before making his move? We have no clue what time Blotchy left the room, so it could have been before, during or after Hutch's vigil. But if Hutch was finally able to enter the room and find Mary alone, and is meant to have killed her shortly after 3am, he presumably watched her previous visitor - Blotchy or A.N. Other - leave. So would this previous visitor not have seen Hutch hanging around?

Sorry to do this on the 'facts' thread, but I think it might be important assuming the 45 minute wait is one of them.

Love,

Caz
X

[Garry Wroe]

I think we can safely dispense with the notion that Cox's evidence was prioritized purely because of Bond's suggested time of death.

Bond's time of death estimation was calculated, at least in part, on the digestive rate of Kelly's stomach content. But since no-one had the vaguest idea as to the time at which Kelly had taken her final meal, Bond's estimation must have been largely speculatory. Personally, I think that the cry of 'Murder!' heard by two witnesses was the clincher as far as investigators were concerned, even though these same investigators normally placed a great deal of faith in the medical evidence.