Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[lynn cates]

sighting

Hello Greg. Yes, there is more to his sighting than meets the eye and some of that was discussed in the "Rip" article.

3 inches taller would be very revealing PROVIDED he accurately assessed Kate's height.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Speculation I know....

Hello Greg.

"What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible?"

If this had happened, I wonder whether Joseph might not be in trouble for not saying something in connection with Kate's inquest? And why did he not intervene rather than beating a hasty retreat, even if only, "Jacob! Leave that poor woman alone and go home at once."?

Cheers.
LC

I don't know the answers Lynn. Perhaps he was afraid of Jacob or already suspected him for other murders and would be in trouble for not revealing this sooner. Yes, he would be in jeopardy for his Inquest statement but again, perhaps police worked a deal behind closed doors for him to receive immunity if he made the identification. Just a thought.

At the Inquest, even though he didn't see the couple, he somehow declared that he was 5'3" which is spot on for cousin Jacob. Or more precisely, I think he said he was 3 inches higher than the woman. So he saw the woman and the height of both yet he didn't see anything............?

Lawende, next to him, somehow saw more...

Hmmm, my imagination runs wild........


Greg

[lynn cates]

answer

Hello Greg.

"What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible?"

If this had happened, I wonder whether Joseph might not be in trouble for not saying something in connection with Kate's inquest? And why did he not intervene rather than beating a hasty retreat, even if only, "Jacob! Leave that poor woman alone and go home at once."?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Is it possible?

Anderson's words make it clear, Ben, that the Seaside Home identification would have been sufficient to secure a conviction. Neither the Cox nor Lawende sightings could have resulted in such an outcome. Thus Anderson's witness must have been Schwartz - the only witness who saw an attack being perpetrated on a victim shortly before the victim's death. Yet again, therefore, Jon's manipulation of events in order to substantiate a theory is baseless.

Hi all,

This may be crazy but since I have Jacob Levy on the brain, this occurred to me. What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible?

We then later have him identifying his cousin, where the perpetrator's shock of recognition is easily envisioned.

Can this be ruled out?


Greg

[Ben]

Thanks, Garry.

I think we can safely dispense with the notion that Cox's evidence was prioritized purely because of Bond's suggested time of death. Indeed, the following extract from the Star, 13th November, flatly refutes it:

"As to the time of the murder, it is now generally admitted that Kelly could not, as some have stated, have been alive on Friday morning. The police have come to the conclusion that the woman who made the most positive statement to this effect must have been mistaken as to the day. Dr. Phillips's evidence, together with that of Mary Ann Cox, Elizabeth Prater, and others, proves that the murder was committed SHORTLY AFTER THREE O'CLOCK- a fact which brings into startling relief the murderer's coolness, caution, and tenacity of purpose."

[Garry Wroe]

No problem, Dave. Maybe someone should rename this thread 'Make It Up As You Go Along.'

[Malcolm X]

no, if Abberline believed GH at first, then he thought that LA DE DA was JTR, not just the last bloke to see her alive.

``he did not appear like someone that could hurt another person`` or whatever he said!...... why did he say this..... sorry no, you have no proof that LA DE DA killed her, because this is still too early for a 4am murder!

GH said this because he wants you and i to think that this bloke is JTR, it's a Subliminal Message, along with Sullan looking, carrying a parcel etc, .

why did Abberline think that GH was talking rubbish later on ? because along with Bond, Blotchy Face looks far more like Sailor boy/broadshoulders and LA DE DA looks more rediculous as time passes by...... this therefore only occured to Abberline after the dust had settled, as it does with us, very soon after they went for walkies down Petticoat Lane.

[DVV]

It did survive and was submitted to Scotland Yard along with Hutchinson’s witness statement.

Phew...!! thanks for that Garry - thought I was caught in an outer space where people use a different sourcebook and meet the Ripper everytime they go shopping.

[Garry Wroe]

So you're saying that when Anderson stated on more than one occasion that the "only person who ever had a good view of the murderer" was a Jewish man, he wasn't being entirely truthful; because there was another, arguably better witness who was neither Jewish nor male, who would have been ideal for the task of viewing the suspect if only she could be traced? In which case, I have to wonder how Anderson was able to reconcile his belief in Blotchy's culpability with his supposed conviction that 24-year-old Jewish Aaron Kosminski was responsible!

Anderson's words make it clear, Ben, that the Seaside Home identification would have been sufficient to secure a conviction. Neither the Cox nor Lawende sightings could have resulted in such an outcome. Thus Anderson's witness must have been Schwartz - the only witness who saw an attack being perpetrated on a victim shortly before the victim's death. Yet again, therefore, Jon's manipulation of events in order to substantiate a theory is baseless.

[Garry Wroe]

Walter Dew does not at all support your flawed hypothesis. Dew makes it abundantly clear he thinks Hutchinson made a mistake, "not necessarily as to a person, but as to date and time". Does that sound like he is calling Hutchinson a liar?

I never said that Dew called Hutchinson a liar, Jon. I said that he ‘rejected Hutchinson’s account’. There is a difference.

Still, we seem to be making progress of sorts. You now appear to be acknowledging that Hutchinson’s story was dismissed by the authorities. According to Dew, Hutchinson may have mixed up the time or date of his alleged sighting of Kelly. At any event, this means that Hutchinson did not meet Kelly on Commercial Street at the time specified in his witness statement, and that Kelly did not encounter Astrakhan shortly thereafter. In other words, with Hutchinson’s claims factored out of the equation, we have no evidence whatsoever that Kelly returned to the streets after having gone indoors with Blotchy.

So what exactly is your argument?

… as the investigation wound down, over the years, Anderson realized that Bond may have erred …

And you know this for a fact?

… That Kelly had actually died later around 4:00 am, and Hutchinson left the scene one full hour before she was killed …

This would be the Hutchinson whose story had been discredited by investigators?

… Therefore Hutchinson's suspect was not necessarily the killer.

You’re still not getting it, Jon. Hutchinson’s ‘suspect’ was dismissed along with Hutchinson’s story. According to Dew, neither Hutchinson nor Astrakhan played any part in the events immediately preceding Kelly’s death. And since Anderson implied that someone other than Hutchinson was ‘the only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer’, he too was rejecting the alleged Astrakhan sighting. It aint rocket science.

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

So you're saying that when Anderson stated on more than one occasion that the "only person who ever had a good view of the murderer" was a Jewish man, he wasn't being entirely truthful; because there was another, arguably better witness who was neither Jewish nor male, who would have been ideal for the task of viewing the suspect if only she could be traced? In which case, I have to wonder how Anderson was able to reconcile his belief in Blotchy's culpability with his supposed conviction that 24-year-old Jewish Aaron Kosminski was responsible!

All the best,
Ben

[Garry Wroe]

Bang on Jon ... And as Hutchinson places himself, at that monment in time, as the last person to see Kelly alive means he would have been interviewed as a suspect, hence Abberlines 'interrogation'.

Sorry Monty, but since Abberline initially believed Hutchinson’s story, he would have regarded Astrakhan as the last person to see Kelly alive, not Hutchinson.

As for Abberline’s ‘interrogation’ of Hutchinson, it was standard procedure at the time, a process used as a means of weeding out the time-wasters from genuine witnesses. Violenia, as you may recall, was never considered a suspect, yet underwent an interrogation lasting several hours. Thus Abberline’s words should not be used to infer that Hutchinson was suspected of anything.

It would seem Abberline could find no discrepncies during this interview which, alas, is missing … I feel if this report had survived, there wouldn't be this intense posting on Hutchinson.

It did survive and was submitted to Scotland Yard along with Hutchinson’s witness statement.

[Garry Wroe]

... I'm far from sure the killer had little to fear from Lawende.

Whoever he was, Dave, the killer is likely to have followed the case closely in the newspapers. He would thus have been aware of both the accuracy of the Lawende description and the unlikelihood of Lawende being able to identify him. My suspicion is that the description was not especially accurate – that it was more the product of impression rather than direct recollection. In fact, if the description really was awry, it could have been positively beneficial to the killer.

[DVV]

Hey guys, are you implying Diddles wasn't a reliable witness ?
I'm off.

[Malcolm X]

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Absolutely, Bond could easily have been mistaken, and probably was. But, we are looking for a reason for the change of focus in the case and this is exactly the kind of situation that would cause such a change.



A random cry of murder can be put down to anything, it will not trump a medically assigned time of death.
The women already tell us they hear it often.

Regards, Jon S.

unfortunately i cant check the facts as well as you, because i dont have the ripper books any more since my father died, i have to search here instead, and this website always was pretty bad compared to a good book.

yes, we've talked about this so much over the years and this time of death is very hard to pin down, but GH might have blown it because Abberline believed Bond and went for a 2am murder, thus dismissed GH as a timewaster

but later Abberline maybe switched back to 4am, but kept quiet about it, because it's a bit embarassing, no idea, but if so this puts GH back into the frame.

Abberline dismisses him as a liar, but like us he must be thinking, ``can he be JTR instead`` ... he must have thought this, the answer is GH was nothing like what he thought JTR was, because unfortunately we have no idea at all, only he knew! ... so dont expect GH to look like Sailor boy or broadshoulders

i think Wickerman has this about right here, for sure, but this only shows that Abberline was wrong, but it makes little difference with regards to GH

COX = telling the truth yes

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