Let's narrow down some Ripper 'facts'

[DVV]

Hi Jon, would you tell me at what time Kelly took her last meal ? I'm sure I've missed something.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

So you're saying that when Anderson stated on more than one occasion that the "only person who ever had a good view of the murderer" was a Jewish man, he wasn't being entirely truthful; ....

Anderson's recollections were defective certainly, therefore unreliable with respect to this debate and Cox did not get a good view by her own testimony.
She followed on behind a male figure through a dark passage, and only glimpsed his face as he slammed the door closed.
Example, in her testimony first he has a full carroty moustache which then changed to a short carroty moustache. But, I think Anderson has other concerns.

Given that Cox could only provide a suspect 1 hour and 15 minutes before Bond's probable "time of death" estimate, Anderson will know that Lawende is still a better witness from a legal perspective.

Bond's medical estimate does not make Cox a principal witness for sighting the Ripper, what it does do is eliminate Hutchinson from ever being considered as "the best witness", in spite of his claim.

On top of that, Anderson will naturally be inclined to stay with Lawende, due to the fact that Mary Cox is a prostitute and Scotland Yard might have a credibility issue if their star witness was a local prostitute.
Anderson will naturally choose the path of least resistance and stay with Lawende, afterall, his sighting was still within 10 minutes of a murder.

Regards, Jon s.

[DVV]

Mrs Long's suspect had blotches as well, but in the back.

[Wickerman]

....Her situation is akin to Schwartz.Both followed persons appearing intoxicated,but while Cox was still some distance behind at the crucial time,Schwartz had narrowed the distance to a point of near contact.Yet both gave specific details of appearance....

You were almost there Harry.

Without muddying the waters any further the question must be posed if a man who has a "small brown moustache" on Sept. 30th, could have grown it sufficiently for it to be described as a "thick carroty moustache" by Nov 9th.
The height at 5ft 5in is the same, and Schwartz did not see BS-man's face clearly, maybe he also had blotches.

Regards, Jon S.

[DVV]

My main concern is about the next hour. Mary was murdered at 4 (thanks to Diddles, who afterwards refused to identify Kosminski, though), then what did Hutch do between 3 and 4 ?
Big question.
In my opinion, he ran to Romford and came back (at around 3:55).

[Abby Normal]

No complaints from me if someone would kindly explain Hutch's 45 minute vigil in inclement weather if Mary was alone inside and still alive.

And I appreciated Mike's comment. In fact I laughed - with him, not at him.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi Caz
he was waiting for someone to leave. Perhaps Blotchy, If he was telling the truth about A-man, perhaps A-man, or someone else.

[DVV]

No complaints from me if someone would kindly explain Hutch's 45 minute vigil in inclement weather if Mary was alone inside and still alive.
X

That's a task for Mike, I'm sure.

[caz]

No complaints from me if someone would kindly explain Hutch's 45 minute vigil in inclement weather if Mary was alone inside and still alive.

And I appreciated Mike's comment. In fact I laughed - with him, not at him.

Love,

Caz
X

[DVV]

Caz post isn't bad, Mike. It didn't deserve your comment.
She has some points worth discussing, no need to raise a hue and a cry.
But now she can't complain if the thread is Hutch-hijacked.

[The Good Michael]

I've just had a thought. (Don't titter at the back there.) If Hutch was there at all that night, and neither mistaken about the date nor inventing the whole story to grab himself a bit of the action and perhaps make some money from the police or the papers, we can at least accept he was telling the truth about his lengthy 45 minute wait. What would he gain from making this supposedly fruitless vigil a minute longer than it actually was?

This leaves Hutch theorists with more explaining to do, because the only good reason for waiting outside like that, if his purpose was to go inside, would be if she had someone else in the room with her all that time. We know by the defence wounds that she was not completely unconscious through drink, nor in a deep sleep, at the point of attack. With a killer like this he'd have cut her throat before she knew what was happening if that were the case. So it's not as if she was alone and the killer was waiting in the court all that time for her to fall asleep (with the risk of being seen by all and sundry). Besides, how could he have been sure from the outside if and when she was finally asleep? If she knew him and trusted him, he didn't need to wait if she was alone. If she didn't know or trust him, she'd have likely yelled blue murder if he let himself in while she was still awake.

So how does the intruder scenario featuring Hutch actually work, if he did indeed have to wait for 45 long minutes before making his move? We have no clue what time Blotchy left the room, so it could have been before, during or after Hutch's vigil. But if Hutch was finally able to enter the room and find Mary alone, and is meant to have killed her shortly after 3am, he presumably watched her previous visitor - Blotchy or A.N. Other - leave. So would this previous visitor not have seen Hutch hanging around?

Sorry to do this on the 'facts' thread, but I think it might be important assuming the 45 minute wait is one of them.

C'mon Caz!

The only truth that night was that Hutchinson was spotted by Lewis and then went in and killed Kelly. Every word of his was a lie, except for the time he said he was there because he was caught dead to rights. Undismayed, he killed her anyway knowing that he could make up a story.... even if Lewis didn't recognize him or describe him.... to get him out of hot water.

Mike

[Garry Wroe]

I think we can safely dispense with the notion that Cox's evidence was prioritized purely because of Bond's suggested time of death.

Bond's time of death estimation was calculated, at least in part, on the digestive rate of Kelly's stomach content. But since no-one had the vaguest idea as to the time at which Kelly had taken her final meal, Bond's estimation must have been largely speculatory. Personally, I think that the cry of 'Murder!' heard by two witnesses was the clincher as far as investigators were concerned, even though these same investigators normally placed a great deal of faith in the medical evidence.

[caz]

I've just had a thought. (Don't titter at the back there.) If Hutch was there at all that night, and neither mistaken about the date nor inventing the whole story to grab himself a bit of the action and perhaps make some money from the police or the papers, we can at least accept he was telling the truth about his lengthy 45 minute wait. What would he gain from making this supposedly fruitless vigil a minute longer than it actually was?

This leaves Hutch theorists with more explaining to do, because the only good reason for waiting outside like that, if his purpose was to go inside, would be if she had someone else in the room with her all that time. We know by the defence wounds that she was not completely unconscious through drink, nor in a deep sleep, at the point of attack. With a killer like this he'd have cut her throat before she knew what was happening if that were the case. So it's not as if she was alone and the killer was waiting in the court all that time for her to fall asleep (with the risk of being seen by all and sundry). Besides, how could he have been sure from the outside if and when she was finally asleep? If she knew him and trusted him, he didn't need to wait if she was alone. If she didn't know or trust him, she'd have likely yelled blue murder if he let himself in while she was still awake.

So how does the intruder scenario featuring Hutch actually work, if he did indeed have to wait for 45 long minutes before making his move? We have no clue what time Blotchy left the room, so it could have been before, during or after Hutch's vigil. But if Hutch was finally able to enter the room and find Mary alone, and is meant to have killed her shortly after 3am, he presumably watched her previous visitor - Blotchy or A.N. Other - leave. So would this previous visitor not have seen Hutch hanging around?

Sorry to do this on the 'facts' thread, but I think it might be important assuming the 45 minute wait is one of them.

Love,

Caz
X

[GregBaron]

Exact heights...

Hello Greg. Yes, there is more to his sighting than meets the eye and some of that was discussed in the "Rip" article.

3 inches taller would be very revealing PROVIDED he accurately assessed Kate's height.

Cheers.
LC

[Coroner] What height was the man? - I should think he was three inches taller than the woman, who was, perhaps, 5ft high. I cannot give any further description of them. I went down Duke-street into Aldgate, leaving them still talking together.
By the Jury: The point in the passage where the man and woman were standing was not well lighted. On the contrary, I think it was badly lighted then, but the light is much better now.
By Mr. Crawford: Nothing in what I saw excited my suspicion as to the intentions of the man. I did not hear a word that he uttered to the woman.
[Coroner] Your fear was rather about yourself? - Not exactly. (Laughter.)

Here's the inquest statement Lynn. Our non-seeing Levy posited the exact height of both participants in poor lighting! Quite an accurate observation for one who saw very little.

I also find his answer not exactly to be interesting. What was his fear then?

Is the ripper article you refer to the Scott Nelson article?


Greg

[Garry Wroe]

This may be crazy but since I have Jacob Levy on the brain, this occurred to me. What if the taciturn and reluctant Joseph Levy was the witness? What if behind closed doors he revealed more than at the Inquest or to the press? Is this possible? We then later have him identifying his cousin, where the perpetrator's shock of recognition is easily envisioned. Can this be ruled out?

According to Anderson, his witness declined to swear to the suspect on learning that the suspect was a fellow Jew. I rather doubt that Levy would have been unaware of his cousin's religious persuasion.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Greg. Yes, there is more to his sighting than meets the eye and some of that was discussed in the "Rip" article.

3 inches taller would be very revealing PROVIDED he accurately assessed Kate's height.

Cheers.
LC

and to suddenly shoot off home scared, because you've seen Eddowes and someone else you dont know is odd.... very odd.... uuuuuuum, yes i noticed this 2 days ago, he felt suddenly scared, awkward, uneasy!

this needs another thread, how can you be scared of a neighbour like this, unless your neighbout is a bit of a nutter and has caused you trouble before! could be.

i doubt he thought he was JTR, not yet anyway, maybe he was a violent nutter and best to pretend that you hadn't seen him.

just food for thought only