Who are the mostly likely suspects?

[lynn cates]

JI

Hello Velma. Thanks. I rather like my chap as well.

Cheers.
LC

[curious]

Hello Velma. Thanks. I rather like my chap as well.

Cheers.
LC

I know you do, Lynn. And while I see him as a possibility, I am not really positive about him -- or anything else really. I am beginning to see a large picture developing, but there are still so terribly many things I don't know.

[Ben]

Hi Curious and Mal,

If Fleming was responsible for the the murders of Kelly and the others, his "motive" would not have been any different from those of other mutilating serial killers, i.e. purely one of sadoxexual gratification. One of the longest standing myths about serial killers is that they only target strangers, which is certainly not the case. One of Reg Christie's last victims was his wife, but she had very little, if anything, to do with his initial motivation for committing serial murder.

All the best,
Ben

[curious]

Hi Curious and Mal,

If Fleming was responsible for the the murders of Kelly and the others, his "motive" would not have been any different from those of other mutilating serial killers, i.e. purely one of sadoxexual gratification. One of the longest standing myths about serial killers is that they only target strangers, which is certainly not the case. One of Reg Christie's last victims was his wife, but she had very little, if anything, to do with his initial motivation for committing serial murder.

All the best,
Ben

OK, Ben, let me see if I understand how you are seeing this:

For some unknown reason, Joseph Fleming started killing -- perhaps one tried to rob or trick him? He struck in anger? Perhaps?

Let's say Tabram here?

He liked the feeling of killing. So, as he relived the murder, he considered how to keep from getting blood on himself, because he would have been between "spells" and lucid.

and he gradually developed and improved his methods?

Perhaps Kelly was always on his mind, so eventually, he just decided he wanted to "do" her and went over to Miller's Court.

Problem here is that I believe in a mid-morning killing.

Back, though, to the basic question, You see Fleming as beginning to kill randomly, perhaps, and MJK was something that eventually came to his mind? She was not the reason he began killing?

[Malcolm X]

do you know how busy Millers court is from 6am onwards...... uum i'd think again if i was you....it would be way too busy to meet her, enter her room, butcher her and walk out again, without at least 5 or more women seeing you, both going in and leaving.

residents will be washing themselves via the water pump outside her room, or getting water for their kettles etc/ talking to each other

and there you are inside her room carving her up with all that lot going on outside her window, only 10ft away, no i dont think so.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Curious and Mal,

If Fleming was responsible for the the murders of Kelly and the others, his "motive" would not have been any different from those of other mutilating serial killers, i.e. purely one of sadoxexual gratification. One of the longest standing myths about serial killers is that they only target strangers, which is certainly not the case. One of Reg Christie's last victims was his wife, but she had very little, if anything, to do with his initial motivation for committing serial murder.

All the best,
Ben

JTR is not killing for the reasons you mention, i'm sure he's not, you have failed to mention Anti-semetism, Organ Harvesting.

``purely sadosexual gratification`` is not him at all, i see no evidence of this whatsoever.

i see a very quick kill and then he's intending to gut the victim, if he can, it's this area that he's targeting and to do so, he has to kill the victim first.

what about the last three then ?.... aaah yes, here he's changing tactics for very good reasons, he's calculated this in the cold light of day

he might not have even said anything to the victim first, not sure, whatever the case i see a quick kill with no Sadistic input at all.

he's killing his victim quite humanely..... however horrible this sounds, because this quick kill is far better than to be poisoned, or to be beaten to death, and should i add to this Stabbed to death like Tabram, yes i think i should....... no JTR is killing them very efficiently, he's not interested in anything Sadistic..... not that i've noticed anyway

the only Sadism i can think off, is if he's talked to them whilst killing them, which i suppose could be the case

[Rubyretro]

``purely sadosexual gratification`` is not him at all, i see no evidence of this whatsoever.

Well, you know Malcolm, targeting women selling sex, killing them, mutilating their sexual organs, cutting out uteruses for trophies, displaying them with splayed legs....?

the only Sadism i can think off, is if he's talked to them whilst killing them

It is true that he might not have been the best conversationalist.

[curious]

do you know how busy Millers court is from 6am onwards...... uum i'd think again if i was you....it would be way too busy to meet her, enter her room, butcher her and walk out again, without at least 5 or more women seeing you, both going in and leaving.

residents will be washing themselves via the water pump outside her room, or getting water for their kettles etc/ talking to each other

and there you are inside her room carving her up with all that lot going on outside her window, only 10ft away, no i dont think so.

Malcolm,
The scenario you've described would not work.

[lynn cates]

big picture

Hello Velma. Care to discuss that big picture?

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Fleming's Abuse

Fleming works considerably better as a suspect than most. If a person who ill-used the most brutally murdered victim in the series, lived in the heart of the murder district, and was committed to a mental asylum for the last 28 years of his life doesn't "work", I'd love someone to suggest a better alternative.

Hi Ben,

This is interesting. Can you point me towards the evidence that Fleming was in the habit of abusing MJK?

Regards, Bridewell.

[curious]

Hello Velma. Care to discuss that big picture?

Cheers.
LC

not in public at the moment. Possibly never, if it does not develop -- like a bad and fuzzy negative.

[Bridewell]

Millers Court

do you know how busy Millers court is from 6am onwards...... uum i'd think again if i was you....it would be way too busy to meet her, enter her room, butcher her and walk out again, without at least 5 or more women seeing you, both going in and leaving.

residents will be washing themselves via the water pump outside her room, or getting water for their kettles etc/ talking to each other

and there you are inside her room carving her up with all that lot going on outside her window, only 10ft away, no i dont think so.

Millers Court was populated mainly, if not wholly, by prostitutes, some of whom, as we know were walking the streets until the small hours. I certainly don't know how busy Millers Court was from 6am onwards but, if the residents were pretty much nocturnal, as seems to have been the case to some extent, how does anyone "know how busy Millers Court is from 6am onwards"?

Perhaps there was little movement before midday. If there is evidence that people were up & about doing their washing etc, then fine but, without it, I'm not so sure.

regards, Bridewell.

[Beowulf]

It was supposed to be raining hard, though. Perhaps that cleared the streets?

[Ben]

Hi Curious,

Yes, if Fleming was responsible, I envisage the sequence of events panning out as you outline. As to the extent of Kelly's potential involvement as a catalyst for his destructive fantasies, it is difficult to say. Serials are often triggered by an event that caused the perpetrator frustration (such as the ending of a job or relationship), and a closer residential proximity to Kelly and Barnett in late '88 may have been a source of inner disquiet, especially if he had ill-used Kelly purely for living wit this other Joe. Strictly speculation, of course. Alternatively, Kelly may have been an intended target for some time, but was previously inaccessible on account of Barnett living with her.

Hi Mal,

As Ruby points out, sadism does not refer exclusively to the inflicting of pain. Post-mortem degradation is also a form of sadism. However quick the killer may have been in dispatching his victims, I doubt very much that this was motivated by a desire to minimise their suffering. More likely, it was done to prevent any screaming, which could have alerted passers-by. The temptation is often to make Jack "special"l, but in reality, there's no reason to separate him from the vast majority of mutilating serial killers, i.e. "lust murderers" and not organ-harvesters. Anti-semitism is only interesting inasmuch as he may have taken advantage of prevalent xenophobia by deflecting suspicion in a false direction, i.e. during the "double-event".

Hi Bridewell,

The "ill-use" reference appears in Julia Venturney's police statement.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi Ben,

This is interesting. Can you point me towards the evidence that Fleming was in the habit of abusing MJK?

Regards, Bridewell.

In this case Ben is right, there is no better suspect for Mary Kelly's murderer.

It is precisely because Fleming was said to have been an abuser, and yet she was still fond of him that I have had reservations about Kelly being a Ripper victim all along.
Both the removal of the heart and the lacerations to her face 'might' indicate her murderer was a spurned lover, who then went overboard to make her death look Ripper-like.

Contrary to Ben though, I cannot see why Fleming should be considered as responsible for other deaths as the Whitechapel murderer.

Regards, Jon S.