Who are the mostly likely suspects?

[lynn cates]

Fleming

Hello Jon. Excellent point. And there may also be a political dimension to this. As you recall, a John Fleming was blown up under London Bridge in 1884, along with the Lomasney brothers. And Clan-na-Gael blamed British spies working for Sir Ed Jenkinson for the incident.

Cheers.
LC

[jason_c]

Millers Court was populated mainly, if not wholly, by prostitutes, some of whom, as we know were walking the streets until the small hours. I certainly don't know how busy Millers Court was from 6am onwards but, if the residents were pretty much nocturnal, as seems to have been the case to some extent, how does anyone "know how busy Millers Court is from 6am onwards"?

Perhaps there was little movement before midday. If there is evidence that people were up & about doing their washing etc, then fine but, without it, I'm not so sure.

regards, Bridewell.

We know at least 2 people who knocked at Kelly's door the morning of her murder. This suggests there was some coming and going during these hours. Maxwell claimed to have seen Kelly/someone at 8.30-9.00am. From 6am onwards Millers Court may have been quiet but was far from deserted.

[Malcolm X]

from 6am onwards, you would have people up and about, because this is when a city wakes up and by 8am this place would be fairly busy... even our hotel in the heart of the New Forest is busy at 7am.

a city never truly sleeps... not really, so a morning mutiation inside Millers court is very risky indeed, just think about it.

i do a sunday art Market in the beautiful city of Winchester, and surprisingly enough this place is dead right up till about 10am, it's very strange indeed, but i very much doubt that Whitechapel is, simply because many residents as they said, were up and about by 8am and probably by 6 to 7am.

[Malcolm X]

In this case Ben is right, there is no better suspect for Mary Kelly's murderer.
.Both the removal of the heart and the lacerations to her face 'might' indicate her murderer was a spurned lover, who then went overboard to make her death look Ripper-like.

Regards, Jon S.

no, because this means that he must have been Eddowes lover as well, because these two murders are committed by the same killer....let alone all the rest.

believe me, MJK was not killed by an ex-lover, she was killed either by someone that noticed her that weekend in the pub, or a few weeks earlier in the pub, or by someone walking past Millers court

it's the opposite, she died because Barnett/ Fleming weren't around anymore, she was thus for the first time in quite a few weeks, on her own and vulnerable, she was probably out boozing and hoping to get blind drunk, when a stranger walked up to her and said...``i've seen you here before, do you mind if i join you``....or similar

he stalked them out in the streets, or in a pub, it's all the same to me, because this is an intelligent person varying his tactics, because you can see that he's varied his tactics anyway, because this one he's killed indoors, so realising this, is to realise that JTR is liable to vary just about anything he wants !!!!!!

except of course............ killing during the week!

dont think she's died because an ex-lover has decided to kill her, now that she's finally alone and that he can finally get to her.

no, she's been murdered because she's on her own and this allows a stranger to engage her one on one; in conversation, and it's far easier to do so, if he's buying her all the drinks she wants !....... this is of course for Blotchy Face only, she is thus very easy to kill later on when she's drunk, if he wants to, even out in the streets !

an ex lover has a huge problem as Blotchy Face..... he can be recognised down the pub, or returning home with her..... i think!

this looks so classic to me, MJK met Blotchy Face in the pub, and they returned home to carry on drinking, but if he's JTR is very hard to say, because he could quite easily be Sailor Boy, or Pipeman/ BS.

Blotchy Face is best placed to kill her, especially if you accept the theory that he left and then returned again at 4am, but i have to say that i'm not happy if he stayed there instead, i think JTR broke in.

if JTR broke in, then only Blotchy knows exactly how drunk she is, exactly the layout of her room, and only he can maybe leave the door slightly open or on the latch...... maybe !

either of the GHs ? yes these two as well.... bloody hell

[Rubyretro]

it's the opposite, she died because Barnett/ Fleming weren't around anymore, she was thus for the first time in quite a few weeks, on her own and vulnerable

I totally agree with you on this point, Malcolm.

I don't agree that only Blotchy knew how drunk she was, nor the layout of her room...I should of thought that quite a number of local men knew that (and that Joe had moved out).

[Malcolm X]

I totally agree with you on this point, Malcolm.

I don't agree that only Blotchy knew how drunk she was, nor the layout of her room...I should of thought that quite a number of local men knew that (and that Joe had moved out).

compared to GH i mean, as a stranger and walking by, hearing her and thus lurking outside, he will realise that she's drunk, but not how much, and definitely not the layout of her room.

of the suspects we have, only Blotchy Face knows everything.

we dont know exactly what happened that night, but Blotchy Face is by far the most likely to have killed her.

if you favour LA DE DA, then you have to rule out GH, if GH then you have to rule out LA DE DA and Blotchy Face, but Blotchy is the only one that we know for sure.... that entered her room and got her blind drunk.

he is thus our top suspect right now !

now with her getting blind drunk... already drunk before she even went indoors, this is not looking good for recovering at 3 to 4am.

think of this very hard..... drunk at 12, continuing to 1am, suddenly stopping singing, this tells me she crashed out, passed out, had enough.

2 hours later, she has a bad hangover, too tired to be bothered, it's too cold and wet outside..... ``sod that i'm staying right here in bed``, that is, if she even woke up at 3am.

now if she didn't crash out at 1am, considering that she was drunk, she would either have carried on singing, gone outside again, or had sex with Blotchy..... now this is where anything could have happened, so i've no idea i'm afraid.

but i think she passed out blind drunk at 1am, because when i used to behave the same back then, i never used to wake up until about 5am, because when you get blind drunk, it tends to knock you out for far more than 2 hours doesn't it..... you wake up needing the toilet and to drink loads of water !

and the girlfriends i used to drink with, used to pass out well before me, they would behave just like MJK and suddenly pass out, or be sick outside etc, yea' those were the days.

so i'm just guessing from past experiences only, but these were always the same, because the only women that didn't pass out, were those that paced themselves and drank slowly..... it was the silly binge-drinkers that passed out on the floor..... always!

now MJK from what is said of her, is this type, she's a weekend heavy binge-drinker, most likely to behave like an idiot and drink till she drops.

this to me is quite important, because i saw this so often and it was always the same, because the only time they ever recover quickly, is if they're violently sick outside..... but not MJK, her stomach was still full, plus her neighbours would have heard her too.

i always said she never went out again, and now more so than ever.... because if i'm right this really does limit who can kill her, because to break in, only someone that knows that she's alone can attempt this.... because she might not even be at home, or even when she went to bed ! so to know exactly what's going on in there, you either have to stalk outside earlier on, or do a Blotchy Face.

[DVV]

Well, I don't think Debs' logic was "BS" at all. I felt her suggestion made considerable sense. In addition, I never formed the impression that Debs was intent on promoting Fleming as a suspect. The really really rubbish thing to do would be to accept the entry uncritically, and in spite the absurdity of the idea that a man of such height could also be both 11 stone in weight AND of "good" bodily health.

The entry is probably in error, and Debs' suggested explanation is as good as any.

But let's have a huge great off-topic repetitive debate about Fleming...again.

Indeed, Ben. In fact, the way some posters stick to this obvious mistake (6'7) is pathetic and tells how biased they are.
Their "Please prove it" is so funny, when evidence, and not proof, is all we can hope in the case.

But in response to this childish "Prove it", here is another challenge for the 6'7 fanatics :

Please, do prove us that there are no mistakes, nor errors, no inacurracies in censuses, records, press reports, etc, or STOP saying Fleming WAS 6'7 without doubt.


A real challenge, especially for those who have never done primary research.

Really, top researchers like Mike, Malcolm and Company should tell Debra not to waste her time with Fleming's height.

[DVV]

Contrary to Ben though, I cannot see why Fleming should be considered as responsible for other deaths as the Whitechapel murderer.

Regards, Jon S.

Hi Jon, with respect, I'm tired with this. What the hell is that supposed to mean ?
Would you tell us why Fleming could not be a serial-killer ?
It's beyond me, honestly.

[DVV]

if you favour LA DE DA, then you have to rule out GH, if GH then you have to rule out LA DE DA

Who will sing the undying beauty of your logic, Malcolm ?

[Malcolm X]

in this scenario JTR can only be one of two people, if not, JTR could be anyone

[Malcolm X]

.

Really, top researchers like Mike, Malcolm and Company should tell Debra not to waste her time with Fleming's height.

yea' Debra dont waste time with his height, i think 6ft 7'' is probably way too tall for his weight.... more like 67'' tall

but i very much doubt that JTR was a jealous ex-boyfriend, or can be accused of being a killer, simply because he abused her, you need far more than that, Fleming needs to be more like GH, or linked with strong suspicion to Blotchy Face.

you could indeed be onto something with him... not sure, it just doesn't feel right that's all.

[DVV]

i think 6ft 7'' is probably way too tall for his weight

yes Malcolm, obviously too tall. People should read the records again, for his "good health" is something constant and remarkable, even though his weight is decreasing while in Stone.

but i very much doubt that JTR was a jealous ex-boyfriend

Oh, doux Jésus....

You "doubt" JtR was a jealous ex-boyfriend ? Errr, serial killers don't have ex-girlfriend ? They can't be jealous ??

[DVV]

Fleming needs to be more like GH

Could you tell me "how" was GH ?
Sounds interesting.

[The Good Michael]

From the asylum records, thanks to Chris:

Phenomena of Disorder - Manner and period of attacks etc.
Signed W D Duncombe
He was sent from Bishopsgate Police Station on June 30th 1892 as an insane person. He had a delusion that he was being followed by people who wish to kill him; at the present time he thinks the same. Otherwise he is quiet, although he looks about him in a vacant manner.

Previous History:
Found wandering and sent to Infirmary of City of London Union.
His mother states there has been insanity in the family for 160 years
Previous attacks: First
Duration of Present Attack: Three days

Form of Insanity: Melancholia
Supposed cause: Drink? Initialled H P
Bodily Health: Good
Height: 6ft 7in
Weight: Weight: 11st 8lbs


Fleming was 6'7" and 162 pounds. The BMI states that 164 pounds is in the normal range for a man 6'7". This would make Fleming 2 pounds on the light side. On top of this, there is a good chance this is not the Fleming who was Kelly's friend. Next, there are no extant police reports suggesting that a man named Fleming ill-used Mary Kelly. There is one statement of a biased woman that said a man named Joe ill-used her per Kelly. So we have hearsay, a man named Joe... and .... nothing else. That last summing up is what is used to argue that a man named Joseph Fleming couldn't have been 6'7" because he was 2 pounds on the light side.

Use some logic people.

Mike

[lynn cates]

unclear

Hello Velma. I know that feeling. Later, perhaps?

Cheers.
LC