Have Ripperologists Been Polled As To Who They Think Jack Really Was?

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

If more people payed heed to what 'Tom Wescott says', this case would have been in the bag two years ago.

Phil,

I'm not sure what Brown in Mitre Square has to do with Dr. Phillips' estimation of time of death in Hanbury Street? Such an estimation only has evidentiary(sp?) value when more solid evidence is lacking that would give us a time of death. In the case of Eddowes, when based on the police evidence we can place her death accurately within minutes, whatever the doctor says means nothing.

Trevor,

The torso victims, in general, were not botched abortions, if that's what you're thinking.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

sed contra

Hello David. The story about decapitation was from inquest.

Yes, for you or me the two are quite different--perhaps not, however, for a psychotic person.

Cheers.
LC

[Phil Carter]

additional edit to my previous post

Dr Brown's stated start of attack would be 1.48 not 1.43 as written. Add 5 mins mutilating after death and end time is 1.53.
My apologies to all

Phil

[DVV]

Hi Lynn

2. The deeper of the two notching the bone.
3. An attempt to decapitate.

Personally I don't see any attempt to decapitate. If there was, 2 & 3 make only one point.

2. Annie with uterus removed.
Why 2? JI himself admitted to thinking that he was harvesting heads and entrails of animals.

Which is very different from removing a human uterus - and this only.

[Trevor Marriott]

Believe me Trevor,

No one is more hilarious than you.

Monty

another claim to fame then.

All these accolades that keep being bestowed upon me wil have to build a bigger cabinet

[Monty]

Believe me Trevor,

No one is more hilarious than you.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

...or accidental deaths.

Now here was me thinking that no one other than me had a sense of humour on here and then up pop Laurel and Hardy aka Monty and Scott

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

Most of her organs were removed, and her heart was missing.

I should have made it clearer none of her organs were removed from the crime scene.

[Phil Carter]

How fluid?

Apples and oranges, Adam. Estimated times of death are very fluid for any doctor, and has no bearing on the very experienced Dr. Phillips in regards to his ability to tell if a knife killer knew what he was doing or not, as in the case of the Stride murder.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Fluidity?How fluid is the following?

1) inspector Collard, a policeman, says HE arrived at Mitre Square at 2 or 3 mins past 2. He states that Dr. Sequiera was already there.

2) Dr. Sequiera states he was called upon at 5 mins to 2. He lived locally and it would not have taken more than 3 or 4mins to get to Mitre Square.

3) He (Sequira) stated that the body would not have been dead more than 15 mins.

4) Dr Brown stated that he arrived at 18mins past 2.

5) He (Brown) states that she (Eddowes) must have been dead most likelx withhn the half hour.

I put it to you that these two experienced Doctors would know a fresh death when they saw one.
I also put it to you than fluidity of time of death estimation only increases when death has occured hours previousjy, not 30mins or lesr,

6) 2.00am minus 15mins is 1.45am.(Sequiera)

7) 2.18am minus 30mins is 1.48am (Brown)

8) Brown states the cause of death was immediate ( haemorrage from the left common carotid artery).

9) Brown states that the mutilations were inflicted after death.(after 1.48am)

10) Brown states that all injuries (inckuding No.8, above) wovld take at least 5 mins. (start 1.43am)

if Brown is correct, the attack started at 1.43 and ended at at least 1.48am
if Sequiera is coßect, the attack started at 1,45.
(if the attack therefore took 5mins then it endde at 1.50)

11) PC Watkins stated he arrived at the scene at 1.44am

12) He(Watkins) states he ran across the square and alerted the nightwatchman at Kearly and Tonge.

All of the above times are WRITTEN, SWORN statements and are from the Inquest reports filed at the Corporation of London Records Office, ( ref. Coroners inquest (L) 1888, No,135, Catherine Eddowes inquest)

13) George Morris ( nightwatchman) states that Watkins knocked at his door at a quarter to two (1.45am) .

PC Watkins states he fixed the time by reference to ìs watch after he had called the nightwatcman. (Morris)

Morris refers to his timekeeping previous to Watkins arrival at his door, thereby having his own time reference piece.

(from witness statements quoted in The Times.)

So we have 4 different timepieces(5 including Collard) telling us that according to 2 doctors Watkins and Morris BOTH must be wrong, or BOTH doctors are wrong in their time of death statements.

How fluid do you want it? All 4 timepieces being wrong?
Evidence and facts should tell you that someone(more than one of the 4) is either badly chronologically mistaken or worse, lying. You choose which and who.

All references can be found in The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook, By Evans and Skinner.

Best wishes,

Phil

[lynn cates]

errata

Hello Greg. Thanks.

"Well spoken Lynn. At least one can connect the dots with your theories."

And that is ALL I seek for the time being.

"And don't let anyone ever tell you that you lack imagination."

Well, as Tom Wescott says, that may be what it takes to make headway here.

"1) I would think the disemboweling would be just the opposite - after finding the wonderful "golden" rings of Annie's, "that's a good days work, now let's be off" might make sense.............but with Nichols he got nothing, so I would expect more damage looking for something worthwhile............."

I think that, with Nichols he was not looking for such. If the "Leather Apron" stories contain even a fundamentum in re--and I think they did--and given that JI was one of 2 or 3 characters who inspired those stories, I think he was shaking down prostitutes for loose pence. How else could he have eaten, little though he consumed?

"2) If JI was in the midst of a schizophrenic episode, which I believe is what you are describing, he did a pretty good job of escaping without a trace, in this delusional state, not once but twice - and without leaving so much as a drop of evidence. That would be impressive of someone with all of his or her wits about them let alone a delusional schizophrenic in episode."

I think there was a good deal of happenstance here. Recall, this lad was all over a good portion of East London and had managed only one entanglement with the coppers--and that in Clerkenwell.

His butcher's actions would have been instinctive at this point.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Impressive delusion...

Well spoken Lynn. At least one can connect the dots with your theories.

And don't let anyone ever tell you that you lack imagination.

I have only two comments.

1) I would think the disemboweling would be just the opposite - after finding the wonderful "golden" rings of Annie's, "that's a good days work, now let's be off" might make sense.............but with Nichols he got nothing, so I would expect more damage looking for something worthwhile.............

2) If JI was in the midst of a schizophrenic episode, which I believe is what you are describing, he did a pretty good job of escaping without a trace, in this delusional state, not once but twice - and without leaving so much as a drop of evidence. That would be impressive of someone with all of his or her wits about them let alone a delusional schizophrenic in episode.

Nevertheless, perhaps his moon was in the seventh house and Jupiter had aligned with Mars........................


Greg

[lynn cates]

respondeo quod

Hello Jon G. Thanks.

First, let's begin by noting similarities, those items which caused many to link these two slayings together.

1. 2 cuts to the neck.

2. The deeper of the two notching the bone.

3. An attempt to decapitate.

4. Both occurring near a Harrison/Barber horse slaughter yard.

5. Both ladies avowedly bent upon a certain pursuit.

6. Both with untorn dresses, lifted up, for mutilation to occur.

Now, the differences.

1. Annie disemboweled.

2. Annie with uterus removed (I put Trevor's thesis in brackets).

Now, why 1? Simply because my lad, JI, was most likely watching the proceedings at the slaughterers. Each one was at a different stage on the animal/s and so put different ideas into his poor delusional head at different times.

Why 2? JI himself admitted to thinking that he was harvesting heads and entrails of animals. But this AFTER Annie's murder.

BONUS: no charge for this. Why the pilferage on Annie but not Polly? Simple answer. He saw the worthless brass rings and thought them valuable. (Recall his chart from Colney Hatch? He had a paper filled with worthless costume jewelry, studs, etc. He proclaimed them "Worth no end of money.") He wrenched them off and went rifling for more.

Quite simple IF one has a model from which to work.

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hello Jon G. Were you addressing this to me? Delighted to answer, but hate to jump in if I were not the intended recipient.

Hi Lynn

Go for it. It was an open question.

[Jon Guy]

Kelly had no organs removed and taken away so those facts also point to another killer thats three.

Hi Trevor

Most of her organs were removed, and her heart was missing.

[Scott Nelson]

...or accidental deaths.