Robert Louis Stevenson

[jsantos]

Phil, I understand your point of view, and I would like to thank you and Tom for your opinions.
If I find something that I think it`s in everyone`s interest I not hesitate to put here.
My age... 36. And I have used the google translate to write in english. Sorry for that.

[Mayerling]

Summary of The Ebb-Tide: A Trio and Quartette, 1894, by RLS, written in collaboration with stepson Lloyd Osbourne, on the Robert Louis Stevenson website.

jsantos, what does The Ebb-Tide have to do with the Whitechapel Murders? Do you have another theory that Edgar Allan Poe committed the Murders in the Rue Morgue... he certainly wrote about them, so he must be guilty, no?

Best regards

Chris

Hi Chris,

I just read THE EBB-TIDE in August. It is a good book about three human derelicks with personal histories of tragedy (a sea-captain who lost his ship and passengers due to drunkeness), crime (a Cockney from the East End of London who is vicious, low, and potentially deadly - throwing vitriol), and an Oxford educated man who can't succeed at work). Chance throws them onto an unchartered island rich in pearls, run by another Oxford man who is no pushover, but has a definite self-righteousness problem. It is a short novel, but interesting - one of three Stevenson wrote with wife Fanny Osbourne's son Lloyd (the others were the comic The Wrong Box (made into a comic film with Michael Caine, Dudley Moore, Ralph Richardson, and John Mills in 1966) and THE Wrecker. THE EBB-TIDE was made into two films (neither really sticking to the story): one in the 1940s starring Ray Milland and Lloyd Nolan, and one in the 2000s with Robbie Coltrane.

As for Poe,since his second Dupin tale ("Marie Roget") is based on an unsolved New York murder of 1841 (of Mary Cecilia Rogers) that would be the case to suspect him about. Irving Wallace does suggest it in his chapter on Mary Rogers in THE FABULOUS ORIGINALS, but admits he is just playing a game there.

Hm. First Lewis Carroll, then Arthur Conan Doyle, now Stevenson. How about G.K.Chesterton, murdering whores in Whitechapel (assisted by his brother Cecil and friend Hillaire Belloc - the latter brother of Mrs Marie Belloc Lowndes who wrote THE LODGER) to stir up anti-Semitism - which Chesterton and his associates boasted about.

Jef

[Mayerling]

"Yes, the Titan was written BEFORE the events, which is the only reason that theory was given credence. The timing was the only reason a claim could be made (wrongly) that the author had information that was only available to the conspiracy." - "Dr. Jekyll And Mr. Hyde" was also written BEFORE the crimes. It also contains many coincidences with Jack`s story. And you know why the coincidences are not bigger? Because RLS was forced by his wife to burn his first version of the "Dr. Jekyll And Mr. Hyde". And why "The Ebb-Tide" was made after the crimes? Because he committed the crimes and then it can talk about them in the form of a fictional story, without being censored.

"Santos, I assume you posted your theory here for critique and peer review." - Absolutely yes. But I must admit that the jokes don`t help any theory.

Hello Mr. Santos,

I really am not knocking your right to present a new theory, but before you read too much into the juxtoposition of THE STRANGE CASE OF DR. JECKYLL AND MR. HYDE (published in 1886), it's stage presentation starring Richard Mansfield (1888) and the Whitechapel Murders (also 1888) please note this.

Stevenson was a keen student of history and crime (yes he was). Most notably in TREASURE ISLAND, where one of Long John Silver's pirates is "Israel Hands", who was based on a real pirate who was in Blackbeard's crew, and in the two novels KIDNAPPED and DAVID BALFOUR which are based on the still unsolved murder of "THE RED FOX" Campbell in Appin forest in 1752, and the judicial murder of James Stewart of the Glen by a trial court controlled by the Campbells (with approval of the British Government). KIDNAPPED, like THE MASTER OF BALLENTRAE, deals with the problems of the Scots following the 1745-46 rebellion under Charles Stuart, the "young pretender to the throne" ["Bonnie Prince Charlie"].

Similarly DR. JECKYLL AND MR. HYDE was based on the double life of the carpenter and Edinburgh official, DEACON WILLIAM BRODIE (hanged 1788).
Brodie was a burglary gang leader using his resectability (like Jeckyll) to avoid suspicion for his crimes. He was active in the 1770s and 1780s.

The short story THE BODY SNATCHER was also based on the 1827 West Port Murders of William Burke and William Hare, who killed people to sell their cadavers to the skillful surgeon and anatomist and teacher of surgery Dr. Robert Knox.

Yours

Jeff

[Mayerling]

Exactly ChrisGeorge and well said....we could go on of course..."Masque of the Red Death" about experiences with tuberculosis..again with a medieval setting........"The Gold Bug"...army experiences on the Islands off South Carolina..."Descent into the Maelstrom" his experiences at Sea...others he may have completely pulled out of his imaginative head....."The Black Cat" or "A Cask of Amontillado" for example...........I'd expect the murders in Poe's tales would far outnumber those of RLS's and I believe the worst of accusations against Poe were a few drunken brawls............it's a shame Poe wasn't alive during the Autumn of Terror as I imagine the inventor of detective fiction would have loved to take on the case..........


Greg

Hi Greg,

I actually did consider a great name in Detective fiction who was alive in 1888 - William Wilkie Colins (THE MOONSTONE, THE WOMAN IN WHITE, NO NAME, ARMADALE, MAN AND WIFE). But Collins was all but blind in 1888, and bedridden - also he was hooked on opium. He died in 1889.

Jeff

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Greg,

I actually did consider a great name in Detective fiction who was alive in 1888 - William Wilkie Colins (THE MOONSTONE, THE WOMAN IN WHITE, NO NAME, ARMADALE, MAN AND WIFE). But Collins was all but blind in 1888, and bedridden - also he was hooked on opium. He died in 1889.

Jeff

Thanks, Jeff.

The other thing about it is that Jack must have been a healthy, strong, and nimble man, not an ailing writer such as Wilkie Collins or the consumptive Robert Louis Stevenson. Jack had to have been strong enough to manhandle a woman as well as to make his escape without being detected.

All the best

Chris

[K-453]

To French and German users: There's a documentary about "Jekyll and Hyde" on arte tonight at 22.50.

Gretings, K.

[Mayerling]

Thanks, Jeff.

The other thing about it is that Jack must have been a healthy, strong, and nimble man, not an ailing writer such as Wilkie Collins or the consumptive Robert Louis Stevenson. Jack had to have been strong enough to manhandle a woman as well as to make his escape without being detected.

All the best

Chris

Hi Chris,

That was oneof the reasons I always gave up on the Lewis Caroll theory (besides the idiocy of the cryptogram portion of it - shades of Ignatius Donelly and his "THE GREAT CRYPTOGRAM" proving that Bacon wrote Shakespear's plays!). Caroll looked like he could be knocked over with a feather. I could just see Annie Chapman or Mary Kelly knocking him down.

Actually so does Druitt, but we know Monty really was athletic because he played cricket so well.

Jeff

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Chris,

That was oneof the reasons I always gave up on the Lewis Caroll theory (besides the idiocy of the cryptogram portion of it - shades of Ignatius Donelly and his "THE GREAT CRYPTOGRAM" proving that Bacon wrote Shakespear's plays!). Caroll looked like he could be knocked over with a feather. I could just see Annie Chapman or Mary Kelly knocking him down.

Actually so does Druitt, but we know Monty really was athletic because he played cricket so well.

Jeff

Hi Jeff

As shown by one of the group photographs of Druitt at Winchester College, he seems to have been quite a muscular chap unlike the somewhat aesthetic portrait of him that has often been likened to the "Collars and Cuffs" portrait of Prince Eddy. As I say, Jack, whomever he was, must have been an able-bodied man for him to have carried out the murders alone, as most of us think.

Best regards

Chris

[jsantos]

References to Homosexuality in Stevenson's Jekl and Hyde
(www.123helpme.com)

Stevenson's choice of certain words in the novel is extremely pertinent to a homoerotic reading of the text. In some Victorian circles (and most certainly not in others), certain words had very explicit homosexual connotations.

The word "homosexual" seems to have come into the English language around 1869, introduced by a Hungarian named Benkert but not generally used by the British until the 1880s. Yet, according to Theo Aronson, there were other words used at that time to identify the love between the same gender. "Homogenic love," "similisexualism," and "Uranism" were apparently among the more common references to homosexuality.

Within the novel, however, the word "homosexual" is never used. If it were, perhaps, then such a homoerotic interpretation as this would be redundant. There are, however, certain, rather ambiguous, words that Stevenson uses that have Victorian homosexual connotations.

During their walk together, Utterson and Enfield come across the home of Edward Hyde. After relating his story about Hyde, Enfield refers to the place as "Black Mail House" (8).

When asked if he ever inquired about the man who lived therein, Enfield replies,

"No sir, I make it a rule of mine: the more it looks like Queer Street, the less I ask" (9).

Both of these references to Hyde's home are more direct references to Hyde himself, made by a man who, at least publicly, must acknowledge the distinction between himself and the man who lives in Soho. Poole also makes a reference to Hyde's homosexuality: "Then you must know as well as the rest of us that there was something queer about that gentleman - something that gave a man a turn. . . " (57).

During the 19th century, of course, homosexuality was acknowledged by heterosexuals (particularly of the upper classes) as an existing activity among the lower classes - an activity that thrived in London's own East End. Those who were thought to be homosexuals were often blackmailed. With the Labouchere Amendment in 1885, homosexuals faced a greater threat of exposure through blackmail. In fact, "the threat of exposure as a sodomite is the basis of more than half of the prosecutions throughout the eighteenth century" ("Jekyll & Hyde," par. 8). Other Victorian writers, like Oscar Wilde, faced this threat, which often damaged their reputations if the affair ever made it to a court.

Enfield's reference to "Queer Street" also denotes a homosexual connotation. According to Elaine Showalter, the homosexual significance of the word "queer" did not enter English slang until 1900 (72). Nonetheless, Enfield's use of the word suggests the privacy that was necessary to protect those who desired to remain secretly homosexual: ". . . the more it looks like Queer Street, the less I ask" (9).

Another word used in the novel is "earnest". Certainly popularized by Oscar Wilde in his play The Importance of Being Earnest, the word itself (again, only in some circles) was synonymous for homosexuality (Aronson 18). In the novel, Jekyll denounces any suggestions that his actions (on becoming Hyde) were hypocritical: "Though so profound a double-dealer, I was in no sense a hypocrite; both sides of me were in dead earnest. . . " (76). Here, Jekyll confesses his homosexuality to be natural; that is, he (as both Jekyll and Hyde) had always been gay, but the need to create Hyde was prompted by a (upper-class) society that would have otherwise refused to accept him; hence, arranging a place in Soho - an area of Victorian London where it was not uncommon to be "earnest".

[Phil H]

I had always understood that "queer street" meant being in financial difficilty of bankrupt. That was certainly the way the word was used when I was young.

Notwithstanding Wilde, the phrase being in "earnest" does and did have a perfectly legitimate meaning. I did a spot of research and it appears that the phrase is often associated with Carey Street, where London's bankruptcy courts were once located.

I think your reading of RLS's words is anachronistic.

Sorry to be always seeming to contradict you, but I don't see this at all.

Phil

[jsantos]

Phil,

maybe you have reason, but the words are not mine. I found in www.123helpme.com

[Phil H]

Wherever it was found, I still disagree for the reasons I gave !

I really don't understand what the point is that is being made.

Phil

[Carol]

[QUOTE=Phil H;194501]I had always understood that "queer street" meant being in financial difficilty of bankrupt. That was certainly the way the word was used when I was young.


I was born in 1946 in Chatham, Kent, and I can definitely remember when I was a young girl that grown-ups would refer to someone being 'in Queer Street' and meant that they were in financial difficulty.

Carol

[ChrisGeorge]

I had always understood that "queer street" meant being in financial difficilty of bankrupt. That was certainly the way the word was used when I was young.

I was born in 1946 in Chatham, Kent, and I can definitely remember when I was a young girl that grown-ups would refer to someone being 'in Queer Street' and meant that they were in financial difficulty.

Carol

Hi jsantos, Phil and Carol

Yes in English the term "in queer street" is used most commonly to indicate financial difficulties, as in Evelyn Waugh's novel Brideshead Revisited (1945) where Edward Ryder comments on his son Charles's financial difficulties:

"Hard up? Penurious? Distressed? Embarrassed? Stoney broke? On the rocks? In Queer Street? - Your cousin Melchior was imprudent with his investments and got into a very queer street - worked his passage to Australia before the mast."

This scene was played memorably by the late Sir John Gielgud in the TV series Brideshead Revisited also starring Jeremy Irons as young Ryder and Anthony Andrews as Sebastian Flyte -- of course, that relationship did have homosexual overtones, but in analyzing a writer's text we need to be careful which meaning of a word or term is meant.

In Edward Ryder's monologue, it could not be any clearer here that lack of money is being talked about.

For me, for Stevenson to have a character describe Hyde as "queer" merely means that the person is saying Hyde was a strange or odd man -- maybe even a person capable of violence, as everyone subsequently discovers, to their cost.

Enfield's reference to Hyde's house as looking "like Queer Street" where he says, "No sir, I make it a rule of mine: the more it looks like Queer Street, the less I ask" appears to me not to reference either homosexuality or impecuniousness but more once again to allude to the strange nature of Hyde.

All the best

Chris

[jsantos]

I have no doubt that the nickname Jack the Ripper was inspired by Dr. Jekyll.
And in my opinion the "Dear Boss" letter was written by Jack. Is brilliant the "Dear Boss" post scriptum - they say i`m a doctor now.
Refers not only to the fact that the police and the press at the time think that the criminal had knowledge of medicine but also at the fact that Dr. Jekyll is a doctor. Brilliant.