Jacob The Ripper?

[tji]

Hi Errata

Lol no, the Jacob Levy in the newspaper report above is a different Jacob Levy to ours. We hypothosised that in 1874 our Jacob Levy would have been 16, if he was guilty of the assault could this have been a pre-cursor to the killings...we were wrong, it was the soldier above who committed the assault.

It does get confusing

Tj

[Defective Detective]

I don't think it's impossible that someone of Lev's status might have ignored the warning signs for syphilis. From what I understand of the period and its medical practices - admittedly very little - calling on a doctor for the poorest of the poor was almost always an avenue of last resort, as opposed to the first thing done as it so often is today. I have read of particularly sickly individuals in the era going broke simply due to doctor's bills. Hell, even today I know of individuals living in poverty who have been severely harmed by diseases that could easily have been treated, simply because going to the doctor would have entailed taking time off their work that they couldn't have afforded. And, of course, there's always the possibility that he at first misdiagnosed his lesions, depending upon their location on his body - a butcher, working around meat swarming with flies, would probably often develop sores indistinguishable from lesions to the untrained eye.

I don't know much about Levy, and I have no particular opinion on him either way as a Ripper suspect (though he does fill out my very general idea of what the Ripper would be like), but we musn't assume that his diagnosis was hot on the heels of his contracting syphilis. I can easily imagine scenarios in which he could have noticed the syphilitic lesions appearing on his flesh, ignored it, and assumed it went away without really knowing what it was as it entered its dormant second stage. Rather than the world's fasted progression of neurosyphilis, he may simply be the winner of the award for World's Longest Period of Undiagnosed Syphilis.

[Errata]

I don't know much about Levy, and I have no particular opinion on him either way as a Ripper suspect (though he does fill out my very general idea of what the Ripper would be like), but we musn't assume that his diagnosis was hot on the heels of his contracting syphilis. I can easily imagine scenarios in which he could have noticed the syphilitic lesions appearing on his flesh, ignored it, and assumed it went away without really knowing what it was as it entered its dormant second stage. Rather than the world's fasted progression of neurosyphilis, he may simply be the winner of the award for World's Longest Period of Undiagnosed Syphilis.

Maybe, but a: its 1888 not 1088. They knew about hygiene if not so much about germs, so lesions are not a usual thing and b: i would totally buy a guy ignoring a cough until it was too late, or a fever, or even searing pain. I could even see him ignoring lesions on his hands or face. I do not for a second believe that a guy shrugs off dripping penis sores. And it would be dripping penis sores. Lesions appear at point of contact. A prostitute would not have had any contact with him in an out of the way place. I have no doubt that a man will risk his life, and his health. He may shrug off a finger, a foot, an ear but never ever the family jewels.

[Defective Detective]

Maybe, but a: its 1888 not 1088. They knew about hygiene if not so much about germs, so lesions are not a usual thing and b: i would totally buy a guy ignoring a cough until it was too late, or a fever, or even searing pain. I could even see him ignoring lesions on his hands or face. I do not for a second believe that a guy shrugs off dripping penis sores. And it would be dripping penis sores. Lesions appear at point of contact. A prostitute would not have had any contact with him in an out of the way place. I have no doubt that a man will risk his life, and his health. He may shrug off a finger, a foot, an ear but never ever the family jewels.

I may be, and very possibly am wrong, but syphilis doesn't always produce genital lesions, does it? Bear in mind that I know next to nothing about the subject, but a cursory look at the Wikipedia article tells me that

Approximately 10–90 days after the initial exposure (average 21 days) a skin lesion appears at the point of contact, which is usually the genitalia, but can be anywhere on the body.

Now, this is pure conjecture on my part and one I readily admit has little to no hard evidence to back it up, but depending on Mr. Levy's sexual proclivities, he may have contracted it through, for instance, an open cut or sore on his hand, which butchers of the period would be very susceptible to. And even in the case of penile exposure, Wikipedia says that

During the initial incubation period, individuals are otherwise asymptomatic. As a result, many patients do not seek medical care immediately.

I just think we have to be very careful about assuming that someone of Mr. Levy's status in life would rush to a doctor first thing.

[tji]

Hi all

I have finally found some info on Jacob's brother that may be of interest, Abraham Levy committed suicide on May 26th 1875. Although I can't guarantee the person below is our Abraham I think it is highly probable, Abraham was born 1853/54 making him 21/22, in the 1871 census he is classed as living at home and is a butcher -:

Friday May 28th 1875 - Glasgow Herald

Results of an unfortunate Speculation

Yesterday Mr Humphrey's, the coroner for the Eastern division of Middlesex received information of Mr Abraham Levy, age 22 years, carrying on the business of butcher at Whitechapel london.
Deceased had bet heavily on the Derby and on the arrival of the news of the result he appeared very despondant.
At a quarter -past six the door of his bedroom was found to be locked, and on its being burst open he was discovered suspended by a rope. A doctor was called in, but life had been extinct some time. On account of the Jewish custom an inquest will be held this day. (Friday).

tj

[tji]

A few queries that come to mind with regards to Abraham's suicide.


I don't mean to sound insensitive but I somehow expected the suicide to be something more like Druitt's, can't face living life, depressed etc, rather than lost money gambling and decided to end it all in his bedroom. I am not trying to say he wasn't ill, just not the way I assumed he had done it.

I wonder if he was still living at home, as far as I am aware he never married, so it is possible..if so, I wonder who found him?

Also if he had been betting heavily on the horses, and was found at quarter past six at home, but had been dead some time, he must have acted quite quickly, I wonder if it is possible he had been thinking about this previously.

Tj

[Errata]

I just think we have to be very careful about assuming that someone of Mr. Levy's status in life would rush to a doctor first thing.

All of this is true, to a point. Lesions appear at the point of contact. The point of contact is not always the genitals. This is where Victorian sex behavior comes into play. Having a quickie in an alley with a gutter prostitute does not involve a lot of contact. The bare minimum of undressing occurs. There is no oral contact, no manual manipulation. The only part of his that would touch an infected part of a prostitute would be the penis. Anything else would require more undressing than she would be willing to do, and more money than he would be likely to have. It honestly would have been considered catering to a perversion to indulge in any other activities, and that would have cost quite a bit more.

The initial incubation period is the time between exposure and the first lesions. And it is an asymptomatic time. It is also the time during which people unknowingly spread the disease. Like the flu. By the time you are symptomatic you have been contagious for a few days. So no one seeks treatment immediately, unless they find out they have been exposed. When the lesions crop up, thats when people run screaming to the doctor.

I don't know if you have ever seen syphilis lesions, but they are... alarming. They don't look like sores from working in a moist environment, or blisters or scrapes or cuts. They sort of look like a popped blister on a wart, with some scabbing and fluid leaking out. It's appalling. And terribly painful. And if the look on my fiance's face when he leaned over to see what I was typing is any indication, it wouldn't surprise me if a man sold his children to get that kind of thing treated.

[Scott Nelson]

It could be that Abraham was distraught at the assassination of the U.S. President, Abraham Lincoln, approximately 10 years earlier. Young Abraham would have been only 10 or 12 at the time. Equally, he could have been unhappy about the prospects of being a butcher for the rest of his life.

[tji]

It could be that Abraham was distraught at the assassination of the U.S. President, Abraham Lincoln, approximately 10 years earlier. Young Abraham would have been only 10 or 12 at the time. Equally, he could have been unhappy about the prospects of being a butcher for the rest of his life

Scott you have lost me with the above post....not sure what you are trying to say, apart from dazzling us with your knowledge of historical events

If, you are serious about the remark on him being a butcher - which given your sense of humor I am not too sure, but I will answer anyway.

Being the daughter of a now ex - butcher, I can say one thing, we always knew there would be food on the table, also there was obviously a call for butchers given the amount of butchers at the time.
I was more thinking along the lines of the mental state he was in at the time, would losing on the Derby be enough for him to hang himself or was it just the last straw that sent him over the edge?

tj

[Scott Nelson]

I believe part of his bet was that he would have to butcher and eat his horse, if it lost, over a one week period.

[Roy Corduroy]

Exploring the Polish Jew suspect of Anderson, with an assist from Swanson and the MacNaghten report can take many twists and turns. Like forks in a road.

If Aaron Kosminski has certain circs that make it difficult for us to fit him up as the suspect, take the Fido fork to Cohen or Kaaasminsky. Or take the fork of City detectives Cox and Sagar, who seem to amplify what Swanson said about survelliance, and a good match of a person we know of is Jacob Levy. The general vicinty he lived, the fact he was commited (even though it was a City referral, not private). He had a police record.

That works for me, honestly. Jacob is in the mix. Suspicion. Not a slam dunk, none of them are.

Roy

[Scott Nelson]

Ive suggested this before, but if you want to research Jacob Levy's possible involvement in the murders, look into a possible association with one George Bolam, who supplied much of the cattle butchered and sold on Aldgate-High Street. I don't have anything of substance on this guy, but he looks mighty suspicious to me.

[protohistorian]

I am proud of You Scott! That was both helpful and civil. That did not hurt now did it? Well Done Sir! Dave

[jason_c]

Yeah. It's not an absolute. Although our fair state is a bit of an oddity, and I'm not sure why. There aren't that many stereotypical clan based names here. They are more biblical, and I'm not sure when or where that transition occurred.

Although historically I think we have the second largest population of Jews in the south. Alabama being first, and Florida not being the south. Whither the Scots-Irish go, so go the Jews it seems. In the 19th century there was a bit of a symbiotic relationship there, even in London.

So I think it's likely that she was Jewish, but you're right. It's not a guarantee. I think it's likely that anyone with that last name in London would have been assumed to be a Jew. The average working class man not being terribly familiar with the intricacies of the history of Scottish religious conversion and the subsequent possibility of a name change.

There still is to this day. Not sure about North America but there is still a common political/religious bond between Ulster Scots and Israel, if not so much the greater Jewish diaspora.

[tji]

Hi Roy

[QUOTE=Roy Corduroy;154705]Exploring the Polish Jew suspect of Anderson, with an assist from Swanson and the MacNaghten report can take many twists and turns. Like forks in a road.

If Aaron Kosminski has certain circs that make it difficult for us to fit him up as the suspect, take the Fido fork to Cohen or Kaaasminsky. Or take the fork of City detectives Cox and Sagar, who seem to amplify what Swanson said about survelliance, and a good match of a person we know of is Jacob Levy. The general vicinty he lived, the fact he was commited (even though it was a City referral, not private). He had a police record.

That works for me, honestly. Jacob is in the mix. Suspicion. Not a slam dunk, none of them are.


I agree completely, while like all suspects there is no proof, I do think that he is a lot better fit as a suspect than some of the more famous/talked about suspects. We are actually amazed that so little is written about him as a suspect.

Hi Scott

Ive suggested this before, but if you want to research Jacob Levy's possible involvement in the murders, look into a possible association with one George Bolam, who supplied much of the cattle butchered and sold on Aldgate-High Street. I don't have anything of substance on this guy, but he looks mighty suspicious to me.

Thanks for the heads up but I have to admit if someone of your research capabilities can't find a lot on him then it is going to be a difficult task for others also.
Do you have any information at all on him?

Tj