Jacob The Ripper?

[Errata]

I am under the impression that Jacob's father was Jewish, but that his mother was not.

Is that wrong?

How would that change things?

curious

Well, Judaism is matrilineal. If your mother is not Jewish, then you are not Jewish. At least according to the community. To people who despise the Jews, they essentially have the same "one drop" rule that states like Alabama has in the first half of the 20th century. And actually may still have for all I know.

Given this (and it is still a problem today as my own mother can attest to) his mother simply would not have been accepted by the community. Certainly not any more than any other christian who lived and worked in the area. His family likely would have been appalled, and likely would have pretended very hard that she did not exist. The thing is, no shame would be attributed to her. She would not be blamed, or shunned, gossiped about, or castigated. She simply would have been another non-Jew in a predominately Jewish community. She would not have been welcomed into the fold. Jacob Levy would have been simply another non-Jewish boy. There were plenty in the neighborhood, and it wouldn't affect his ability to make friends, or play. But he would not have been included in any religious activities or holidays. He would not have attended synagogue, he would not be bar mitzvahed. He would not marry in a synagogue, and likely would not marry a Jewish girl.

His father on the other hand would have been open to quite a bit of gossip, ridicule, and even a certain horror. What was so wrong with him no Jewish girl would have him? How could he be so selfish as to marry a shiksa? How could he shame his family like that? Etc. It's a bit of a dichotomy. There is no shame in being a Christian, but there is some attached to marrying one.

[tji]

Hi all

I also don't believe it is in the realms of impossibility to think his anger built up over a period of years.

Conjecture here, but how differently could the syphilis have affected his body given that he probably had a mental illness as well, would the average statistics still stand or would they alter?

Hi Curious

Could I ask where you heard Caroline was a non Jew, we have hypothesisied on the boards that she may have married a non Jew before Joseph and that is why her and her children have the surname she was born with, we have even given it a thought that she may not be a Jew herself - however she was married to Joseph in a synagogue so chances are she probably was one. She is a bit if a mystery to say the least!


Tj

[Errata]

Conjecture here, but how differently could the syphilis have affected his body given that he probably had a mental illness as well, would the average statistics still stand or would they alter?

Yikes. Not an easy question. See, we don't really know a whole lot about mental illness, even today. It is structural, but it isn't. It is chemical, but it isn't. It is genetic, but it isn't. And it's situational, but it isn't. I'm going to use Bipolar disorder to sort of illustrate. Both because I have it and know about it, and Levy was committed for "Mania" which makes it as good a guess as any for him. Bear with me, this might be long.

Bipolar disorder is chemical. It involves dopamine, serotonin, and sometimes norepinephrine (I think). We know it's chemical because medication can alleviate it. And of course in more modern times, we can see it on a PET scan. Deprive the body of any of these chemicals, and Bipolar symptoms appear. The two most common causes are an inability to absorb Seratonin for various reasons, Or the inabilty to produce sufficient amounts of Seratonin. There is a third way as well, which is if dopamine is unable to reach a specific set of receptors on a certain pathway. All of these problems are structural. They have to do with how the brain is built. Faulty receptors, blocked pathways, all of it. So the reason for Bipolar systems is chemical. The faulty chemistry is structural.

Genetically, we know Bipolar is a heritable disease. People who have it, even if they think their family is completely normal, suddenly find weird stories about grandpa or aunt Mamie. I have it, my father's mother had it, my mother has it. However, in identical twins, there is a 60% chance that both twins will be bipolar. My fiance is an identical twin. He is bipolar, while his twin is not. So while there is a genetic component, there is something else that triggers the disease. No one knows what. We know Bipolar is not situational. Childhood abuse doesn't cause it, the death of a loved one doesn't cause it. However, these things screw with our chemistry in other ways, and can make things quite a bit worse. Depression can and often is situational. Someone just goes through a rough patch. They will get better. Someone with Bipolar will live with it the rest of their lives.

And yet with all of this information, still no one can say why. The best doctors in the country have repeatedly told me "Nobody knows". Nobody knows why my brain is different. Nobody even knows how my brain is different. They just know that it is. They know because I have certain symptoms, and certain chemicals affect me in certain ways. There is no gene they can show me, no point on an MRI of my brain they can point to. There is nothing in my past, nothing in my blood work. They know I am Bipolar because I act that way unmedicated. So how different is that from the Victorian age? Not a whole lot.

Neurosyphilis is purely structural. As is schizophrenia by the way. The symptom are cause by the disease attacking the brain, causing it to atrophy, and to "soften". The initial symptoms of neurosyphilis reflect this. It starts with crossed wires. Numbness here, tingling there, auras, all of which are brought on by a confusion of pathways as they shrink in on each other (not entirely accurate, but it serves for this purpose). More and more signals get crossed with memory and emotion until you are just irretrievably mad.

Ironically, certain structural anomalies alleviate mental illness. Electro-Convulsive Therapy is specifically designed to trigger a seizure. Seizures are structural, and essentially act as an Etch-a-Sketch. They reinstall your OS, and afterwards you are error free for months. People with epilepsy rarely have mental illnesses. Lobotomies provided structural solutions to mental illness, because the scars would block the pathways. So it's possible that brain atrophy could, in some messed up way, relieve mental illness. Of course It's more likely that it wouldn't.

No mental illness would speed up the progression of syphilis. Could it make it terribly hard to determine where the crazy ends and the syphilis begins? Yes. Stress always erodes our coping mechanisms, which makes managing the symptoms of mental illness very difficult. Could the symptoms of mental illness be more acute as the brain atrophies? It's possible. I don't think we have enough information on the brain, or mental illness to say one way or the other with any certainty. Could someone snap before the syphilis makes them? Of course. But once emotional symptoms of syphilis set in, there is no recovery. The break in syphilis is strong, sudden, and irreversible. And at that point, whatever else you may have had is immaterial.

Yup. that was long.

[curious]

Could I ask where you heard Caroline was a non Jew, we have hypothesisied on the boards that she may have married a non Jew before Joseph and that is why her and her children have the surname she was born with, we have even given it a thought that she may not be a Jew herself - however she was married to Joseph in a synagogue so chances are she probably was one. She is a bit if a mystery to say the least!


Tj

I've contacted the person who told me (I've never seen it anywhere) and he's looking to see what his source was.

When he tells me, I'll get back to you.

Interesting . . .

If she had converted to Judism to marry Joseph, could she have married in a synagogue?

curious

[Errata]

Interesting . . .

If she had converted to Judism to marry Joseph, could she have married in a synagogue?

curious

Yes, she could have. But conversion is a process, and not a guaranteed one. There is the ritual denial, and then a long period of instruction, and finally a test and final judgment by a Rabbinical council. Who can say no. And did. (not so much anymore)

Also women were still property back then. If she had been widowed, and was no longer her husband's property, she went back to being her father's property. While her father's consent is not a biblical requirement for conversion, it would be a very brave teacher and Rabbinical council who would proceed without it. They were already accused of stealing gentile infants and drinking their blood for passover. And this without actual infants being missing. Can you imagine what would happen if they went around stealing good christian daughters?

The simplest thing to do if she was not Jewish, and not from the neighborhood, would be to just lie and say she was. There were plenty of Jews who were not raising their children that way because of the discrimination. There were plenty of Jews who converted to C of E to further their careers, marry well, take a position in government. That would have been a much better card to play than trying to convert. But it would only work if no one in the neighborhood knew her.

I'm an idiot. I forgot. If her older daughters' last name name was Solomons, she likely was Jewish. I babbled a while ago on here about the "Ellis Island Effect" as it applied to Levys and Cohens. But it applies here too. If a man comes to the country and gives his name as Eliazar Ben Solomon, or Eliazar son of Solomon, wanna take bets on to what his anglicized last name would be? Solomons, Jacobs, Isaacs... it's mostly where these last names came from. So she likely was. Or the father of her first two children was, depending on whose last name she gave them.

[curious]

. If a man comes to the country and gives his name as Eliazar Ben Solomon, or Eliazar son of Solomon, wanna take bets on to what his anglicized last name would be? Solomons, Jacobs, Isaacs... it's mostly where these last names came from. So she likely was. Or the father of her first two children was, depending on whose last name she gave them.

Actually, in East Tennessee there are many good Baptists with the last name of Solomon ---- and they've been here many generations. There is not a big population of Jews here, so I'd always just thought they were likely Scots-Irish like most of the rest of us.

curious

[Errata]

Actually, in East Tennessee there are many good Baptists with the last name of Solomon ---- and they've been here many generations. There is not a big population of Jews here, so I'd always just thought they were likely Scots-Irish like most of the rest of us.

curious

Yeah. It's not an absolute. Although our fair state is a bit of an oddity, and I'm not sure why. There aren't that many stereotypical clan based names here. They are more biblical, and I'm not sure when or where that transition occurred.

Although historically I think we have the second largest population of Jews in the south. Alabama being first, and Florida not being the south. Whither the Scots-Irish go, so go the Jews it seems. In the 19th century there was a bit of a symbiotic relationship there, even in London.

So I think it's likely that she was Jewish, but you're right. It's not a guarantee. I think it's likely that anyone with that last name in London would have been assumed to be a Jew. The average working class man not being terribly familiar with the intricacies of the history of Scottish religious conversion and the subsequent possibility of a name change.

[judyj]

Jacob the Ripper

Hi Errata
I read with great interest your post on Bi Polar. You covered the bases very well indeed, however different people react in different ways to medication and back then I don't think the illness Bi polar was even heard off. Unfortunately in those days they shoved people away in asylums referring to them as lunatics. Most inhumane as it was there were so many handled that way.

A couple points I would make on being Bipolar is that stressers can cause a hugh effect, as does alcohol and the change in seasons very often will cause either an extreme high or low. Summertime, sunshine and long days of same can cause agitation, impatience and extreme highs, whereas winter dark mornings and early evenings can cause a bipolar person to feel deep depression. Mental Health centres are more full during Halloween and have more attempted suicides during the xmas season.
I am certainly not critizing your post, it was very well done, but there are so many circumstances surrounding mental health issues that you could never cover them all. Even today where there are so many good doctors, books, internet references and technology they still can't figure us out.
On that note I doubt that in 1888 they had the same tools that we have today, and no doubt knew less about cures or medication for those with Mania and other issues.

julie

[Errata]

Hi Errata
I read with great interest your post on Bi Polar. You covered the bases very well indeed, however different people react in different ways to medication and back then I don't think the illness Bi polar was even heard off. Unfortunately in those days they shoved people away in asylums referring to them as lunatics. Most inhumane as it was there were so many handled that way.

A couple points I would make on being Bipolar is that stressers can cause a hugh effect, as does alcohol and the change in seasons very often will cause either an extreme high or low. Summertime, sunshine and long days of same can cause agitation, impatience and extreme highs, whereas winter dark mornings and early evenings can cause a bipolar person to feel deep depression. Mental Health centres are more full during Halloween and have more attempted suicides during the xmas season.
I am certainly not critizing your post, it was very well done, but there are so many circumstances surrounding mental health issues that you could never cover them all. Even today where there are so many good doctors, books, internet references and technology they still can't figure us out.
On that note I doubt that in 1888 they had the same tools that we have today, and no doubt knew less about cures or medication for those with Mania and other issues.

julie

And really that was my point. We just don't understand mental illness well enough. And for all we know, we still don't know. And back then? Forget it. There was just crazy and sane.

The thing is, he could be Bipolar, but that wouldn't make him Jack the Ripper. There would have to be a whole lot more going on there, like psychosis or psychopathy. He had a big family. If he was psychotic, someone would have noticed. And no one would have protected him. If he was psychopathic, well likely no one would notice. People rarely do. But if he was psychopathic, the odds of him having a mood disorder completely tank.

There are mental illnesses that Jacob Levy could have, and mental illnesses Jack the Ripper could have, but for the most part, none that both could have. Jacob Levy's life wasn't great, but he mostly kept it together. Unmedicated and untreated he could function. There's not a lot of conditions like that barring mood disorders. Most mental illnesses left untreated completely destroy a persons life and their ability to function. So could Jacob Levy have a symptomatic mental illness that allowed him to function? Yes. Could he have a symptomatic mental illness that allowed him to function and could cause him to kill? Yes. Could he have a symptomatic mental illness that allowed him to function, could cause him to kill, all without terrifying those around him? No. Not really. So if I'm going to make a guess as to whether or not he had a mental illness and was Jack the Ripper, I would have to say no. He would appear to only be one or the other.

[Jdombrowski89]

I understand.
I disagree that the trigger is more likely when he first sees the lesions, then a "window" closes and he takes no action after that. Instead, I think it just as likely his rage could build over three years.
Roy

I agree with you Roy. It merely depends on the increase of the patient itself and when exactly the onset of mania,etc is. If Levy's mental illness increased around the time of the Ripper Murders then it could be a good plausible explanation.

Everyone who had syphilis (sp?) of course had the reactions and consequences increase at a different rate back then. You also would have to take into account the living conditions,etc.

Regards,
Justin

[Jimi]

Coincidence?

Hi Justin
Basically what yourself and Roy are describing is someone with a mental disorder then having stress added to this disorder, i believe.
How much of a coincidence,and how much of a stressor is the FACT that Caroline Levy, Jacobs mother died in July 1888?
Keep Well
Jimi

[Jimi]

Jacob Levy Previous

Hi All
Many thanks to DebraA for her info. on the Jacob Levy arrested for Sexual Assault in 1874. Great work and it is certainly possible that this is the Levy we were looking for.
It is gems like these that make the search worthwhile.
From both TJI and myself, Great Work that lady!
Keep well
Jimi

[Jimi]

Hi All

Oooops - I meant that Debra A found the info on the Jacob Levy we were querying - and it is not our Jacob. Apologies for any confusion caused.

Keep well
Jimi

[tji]

Hi All

Here is the report that Debs found with regards to a Jacob Levy and the indecent assault charge.

SERIOUS CHARGE AGAINST AN OLD SOLDIER

Jacob Levy, 43, described as a cigar maker, was charged with indecently assaulting a girl under the age of 12 years - the prisoner, in his defence, sais that he had won the Victoria Cross at Delhi and while in the army had gone through the Afghanistan, Burmese, and Crimean campaigns, and had been engaged at Delhi and Lucknow. He had lost a leg and hand and was on board the Blue Jacket when the vessel caught fire. He entirely denied the charge and it appeared that the girl had not given details of any complaint until 36 hours after the alleged assault. The Jury found the prisoner 'Not guilty' and he was discharged.

Lloyd's Weekly feb 15 1874

Tj

[Errata]

Hi All

Here is the report that Debs found with regards to a Jacob Levy and the indecent assault charge.

SERIOUS CHARGE AGAINST AN OLD SOLDIER

Jacob Levy, 43, described as a cigar maker, was charged with indecently assaulting a girl under the age of 12 years - the prisoner, in his defence, sais that he had won the Victoria Cross at Delhi and while in the army had gone through the Afghanistan, Burmese, and Crimean campaigns, and had been engaged at Delhi and Lucknow. He had lost a leg and hand and was on board the Blue Jacket when the vessel caught fire. He entirely denied the charge and it appeared that the girl had not given details of any complaint until 36 hours after the alleged assault. The Jury found the prisoner 'Not guilty' and he was discharged.

Lloyd's Weekly feb 15 1874

Tj

missing a hand and a leg? a better alibi against being jack the ripper cannot possibly be had, unless he was also dead at the time.