Kosminski..why the big secret ?

[jason_c]

The reports of Kosminski's hearing over the dog muzzle incident mentions nothing about drooling or knuckle dragging. He seems to be opinionated, coherent and English speaking in 1889.

As for the rest, there is nothing new about differing police officers having different views about a case. I am certainly willing to admit that Anderson's "ascertained fact" was actually a theory.

[robhouse]

"Phillip Sugden's excellent breakdown of the Kosminski theory in The Complete History of Jack the Ripper shows, or at least should show, to all of us that Kosminski was not the Ripper and neither was Druitt or Ostrog."

I personally do not think Sugden's "breakdown of the Kosminski theory" is what I would call "excellent." He raises some valid points, but I think his conclusions are wrong. His views on the matter have been generally adopted however, and they are endlessly repeated like a mantra here on the boards... drooling imbecile, wish dreams etc.

RH

[The Good Michael]

If we look at the murders as a progression, which I do, why can't we also look at mental illness as a progression?

Eating from the gutter/street/trash bin because one doesn't trust taking food from someone, is clearly a paranoid issue, but one that has nothing to do with intelligence. This sort of thing is seen in Los Angeles on a daily basis with some of the homeless who would rather scrounge for themselves than deal with having to even think about what it would take to secure a job, a car, an apartment, clothing, or to stay sober. That kind of thing is not even a remote possibility with many people. It isn't so far removed from the times when we all have sat down with a stack of bills and a slim bankbook and nearly went mad trying to figure out how we were going to come out of the black hole. Eating from the gutter is not so far from where we all have been.

Cheers,

Mike

Addition: It is the height of ignorance to paint a suspect with the broad brush of imbecility that allows one to casually and without real thought, dismiss him. Mental illness is a highly complex issue that cannot be simply explained, and especially with regards to someone of whom we know nearly nothing.

Kosminski was a man with mental illness. He was named as the murderer. That's where we are. Uninformed arguments about what a mentally ill man could have done serves no purpose but to retard the case against Kosminski. Calling someone a liar (Anderson)because one has a preconceived idea about what Kosminski was like, and has given that persona life, is further ignorance.

[Chris]

Where do you think? All the descriptions describe a man who ate bread out of the gutter, wouldn't take food from others etc. etc.

As far as I know, it's only the one description - provided by Jacob Cohen in 1891, that says that. If - as suggested by your reference to "all the descriptions" - you know of any others, it would be interesting to know the details.

[Dave James]

All the descriptions are WRONG. This is a terrible insult to those who suffer this illness (schizophrenia). And only serves to perpetuate the Kosminski MYTH.

Which seems to suite people not interested in the facts surrounding the case.

Pirate

Hi Pirate,
Didn't mean to offend. I agree with your comment, but without understanding, this is the image that has been propagated by most of the respected JtR authors. So please, don't shoot the messenger.
All the best
Dave

[robhouse]

One of the primary ones Simon, that I always take exception to, is the erroneous statement that Kozminski was an "imbecile." This normally accompanies the word "drooling" as in "drooling imbecile"... which is usually supported by the fact that Kozminski "ate food out of the gutter."

Sugden calls Kozminski an imbecile, as does Martin Fido and others, and this so-called "fact" has propagated. So perhaps that one thing, for starters can be corrected.

I have posted on this several times already and I do not feel like going into it again. Suffice to say the following:

1. "Imbecile" was a legal classification of insanity.
2. Kozminski was not classified as an imbecile.
3. Leavesden accepted various classifications of insane people... not just imbeciles as has been commonly assumed.

In short, the assertion that Kozminski was an "imbecile" stems from a lack of understanding of the classification system of insane people in the Victorian era, combined with a misreading of his files, and the assumption that Leavesden was solely for Imbeciles.


Rob H

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jeff,

I'm extremely interested in the facts surrounding the Kosminski case, so maybe you could set the record straight with the RIGHT descriptions of AK. Maybe this will help to dispel the Kosminski MYTH.

Regards,

Simon

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob,
Where do you think? All the descriptions describe a man who ate bread out of the gutter, wouldn't take food from others etc. etc.
OK, he might not have been droooling, but it's an image that is always propagated.

Sorry! Just hada horrible image, Dewie in the 'Scream' films. It's on TV at the moment, Sorry All the best Dave

All the descriptions are WRONG. This is a terrible insult to those who suffer this illness (schizophrenia). And only serves to perpetuate the Kosminski MYTH.

Which seems to suite people not interested in the facts surrounding the case.

Pirate

[Dave James]

Hello Dave et al,

Where do you get the idea that he was "drooling"?

Rob H

Hi Rob,
Where do you think? All the descriptions describe a man who ate bread out of the gutter, wouldn't take food from others etc. etc.
OK, he might not have been droooling, but it's an image that is always propagated.

Sorry! Just hada horrible image, Dewie in the 'Scream' films. It's on TV at the moment,

Sorry
All the best
Dave

[robhouse]

Hello Dave et al,

Where do you get the idea that he was "drooling"?

Rob H

[Dave James]

Anderson turned a simple opinion and stated that it was a fact, which it wasn't. Phillip Sugden's excellent breakdown of the Kosminski theory in The Complete History of Jack the Ripper shows, or at least should show, to all of us that Kosminski was not the Ripper and neither was Druitt or Ostrog.

Hi all,
For what it's worth...(good song by the way!),
If anyone entered the premises, it was:
a) with Mary
b) someone with the key

Mary needed money to pay the rent, she wouldn't be feeling charitable, she had already turned down Huch, so a drooling loopyfruit would be even lower down the list.
Would this drooling loopyfruit have the key to her gaff?
Exit Kosminski - 'nuf said.
All the best
Dave

[Tom_Wescott]

If Mcnaghten and Anderson really did know the identity of JTR ( Kosminski )
wouldnt it be safe to assume then that the likes of Abberline and other senior investigating officers would have been made aware of this?
Also, wouldnt it have been in the police's intrest to let the people and press know that they had at last caught their man concidering all the criticism they had been under, why keep it secret ?

Hi spyglass. Abberline was aware of these suspects but thought there was nothing to them. Of course, Abberline retired in 1892, so anything he might have learned after that would not be first hand knowledge.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[spyglass]

Thanks Pirate Jack.
I remember reading about that case along time ago, I will go away and refresh my memory, Although was'nt that case known with another name as well ?

[DVV]

Hmmm, there are several threads on the same subject, it seems...

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Adam,

Well said and Amen!

best wishes

Phil