Kosminski..why the big secret ?

[Chris]

How could the police NOT have had any involvement in the admission of Jack the Ripper to Colney Hatch Asylum? It beggars belief.

I can understand why Rob thinks the police may have been involved. I'm less clear why you do, considering that you don't believe Aaron Kozminski was even under police suspicion.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Rob,

Thank you for answering my question to Jeff. I guess his latest copy of the LVA newsletter has yet to arrive.

How could the police NOT have had any involvement in the admission of Jack the Ripper to Colney Hatch Asylum? It beggars belief. So to whom did they entrust the safe committal of possibly the most dangerous man in the world? When Joseph Isaacs was arrested the police "subsequently brought away the prisoner in a cab, which was strongly escorted". And if the police were not involved in Kosminski's committal how did Swanson know that he "had been with his hands tied behind his back he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch"? Who told him?

Edmund King Houchin also went on to become Wynne Baxter's deputy. But more importantly, nine days after Kosminski's committal he was at Arbour Square police station treating a real Ripper suspect, James Sadler, for a broken rib.

The officer in charge of the case was Donald Swanson, so he and Houchin must have felt spoiled for choice when it came to Ripper suspects.

I'm sorry, Rob, but the Kosminski as Ripper idea defies simple logic.

Don't get me wrong. I'd be fascinated to read a book about Kosminski, his struggles in Poland/Russia and eventual emigration to England, only to be committed to a mental asylum at the age of 26 where he would die aged 54. What a story it would make. But to hang the book on Aaron's candidacy as Jack the Ripper . . ? Please, for pity's sake, don't do it unless you have more than a highly subjective interpretation of his mental condition, a few maybes and a dollop of wishful thinking all topped off with the less than reliable word of Sir Robert Anderson and some dodgy marginalia.

You at least owe Aaron Kosminski that much.

Regards,

Simon

[c.d.]

Thanks for that, Rob.

What you say makes sense. Looks like I will have to rethink my position on old Aaron.

c.d.

[robhouse]

CD,

The police did in fact begin to draw down their investigations into the Ripper murders around early 1889... specifically, it seems around March (which is coincidentally the date Macnaghten erroneously gives for Kozminski's asylum entry.) Around March, the extra patrols were phased out, Abberline was removed from the case, etc. Stewart Evans has argued that this was simply because of the Ripper's inactivity, and because of the extra cost of the patrols. This is a valid argument, but I think there may have been other reasons.

Also, I think it is likely that many of the "ground" forces were aware of Kozminski as a suspect. City Detective Henry Cox for example may well have been talking about Kozminski in his later reminiscences. As he said, "There were several other officers with me, and I think there can be no harm in stating that the opinion of most of them was that the man they were watching had something to do with the crimes" He also said that the man "was never arrested for the reason that not the slightest scrap of evidence could be found to connect him with the crimes." This ties in well with what Anderson said.

Also arguably, Swanson may have claimed (in the marginalia) that the details about Kozminski as a suspect (for example the identification, and any other information they had gathered about him... from informants etc) were only known to "head officers of CID". So I think it is entirely plausible that there was an effort on the part of the head officials at Scotland Yard to suppress the story. I do not think they would have informed anyone, including the lower police officials or the ground detectives about any of this. I think the only people who would have been informed were those on a "need to know" basis. Like, for example, the top officials at the Asylums.

Rob H

[robhouse]

Edmund King Houchin examined Aaron Kozminski at Mile End Old Townhouse on February 6, and wrote up an outline of his symptoms. This was essentially a certification of insanity. In this document, Houchin gave the classification of insanity as "person of unsound mind". Kozminski was admitted to Colney Hatch the next day.

In response to your question Simon... I do not know if the police had any involvement in Aaron's admission to Mile End or Colney Hatch. I have always felt that they may have been "involved" in some capacity behind the scenes, but that they were not actually present when Kozminski was brought to the workhouse then to the asylum. Chris Phillips I think disagrees with this, and believes that the police were not involved at all. But really it is an unknown.

However, it is important to note that Houchin was a police surgeon for H Division, so this may factor into things.

I have always thought that the Police may have informed some of the Top Asylum officials about Kozminski, but told them to keep their suspicions about him a secret... i.e. not to inform the asylum staff. This to me would be a reasonable course of action since they apparently suspected him, but were legally unable to proceed with any sort of case against him. In other words, what else could they do?

RH

[c.d.]

If top Scotland Yard officials believed that they had caught the Ripper and had him institutionalized and wanted to keep it quiet for whatever reason, wouldn't they have had to instruct minor officials and the troops on the ground to discontinue their search for the Ripper and give them other assignments? Wouldn't that have caused talk and speculation by those out of the loop? Yet we never hear of anything like that happening.

c.d.

[Jeff Leahy]

I'll continue to take the advice of those qualified to give it.

I've never claimed to be an expert in Schizophrenia.

Pirate

[The Good Michael]

I'm fairly happy with a diagnosis of a form of 'Schizophrenia'.

But then you weaken your argument by stating something that cannot even be remotely proven. It's best to leave this one as mental illness, non-specific and go on to other arguments that can have a more conclusive outcome.

Cheers,

Mike

[c.d.]

Hi Jeff,

Colney Hatch Asylum was the default mental institution for Jewish patients from the Metropolitan Police area, just as Stone Asylum was for City Jewish patients.

In the Male Day Patients Book of Colney Hatch, 6th February 1891, Dr. EK Houchin wrote Kosminski's initial case notes. Do you think he knew at the time that he was writing the case notes of Jack the Ripper?

Regards,

Simon

Hi Simon,

Human nature tells me that if Scotland Yard really believed that they had captured the Ripper, every Scotland Yard detective would have made a trip to that mental institution and the word would have gotten out.

c.d.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jeff,

Colney Hatch Asylum was the default mental institution for Jewish patients from the Metropolitan Police area, just as Stone Asylum was for City Jewish patients.

In the Male Day Patients Book of Colney Hatch, 6th February 1891, Dr. EK Houchin wrote Kosminski's initial case notes. Do you think he knew at the time that he was writing the case notes of Jack the Ripper?

Regards,

Simon

[DVV]

I personally do not think Sugden's "breakdown of the Kosminski theory" is what I would call "excellent." He raises some valid points, but I think his conclusions are wrong. His views on the matter have been generally adopted however, and they are endlessly repeated like a mantra here on the boards... drooling imbecile, wish dreams etc.

RH

Hi Rob,

agreed. We don't know enough about his personality to dismiss him on such a basis.I therefore agree with Mike's posts too.

What I find questionable (to say the least) is Anderson's "ascertained fact".

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

‘After the suspect had been identified at the Seaside Home where he had been sent by us with difficulty in order to subject him to identification and he knew he was identified.
On suspects return to his brothers house in whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day and night. In a very short time the suspect with his hands tied behind his back he was sent to Stepney Workhouse and then to Colney Hatch and died shortly afterwards- Kosminski was the suspect-DSS

Hi Mike

I'm fairly happy with a diagnosis of a form of 'Schizophrenia'. My caution would be in pigeon holing schizophrenics. There is a lot of variation.

However i do think it reasonable to listen to expert advice on typical behaviour patterns that this illness might create/induce?.

As long as people understand that you are being general rather than specific to Aaron's case.

Pirate

[The Good Michael]

The problem when considering Aarons mental condition is that there is very little to go on.

Exactly what I have said. So, dismissal of a suspect based on inexpert opinion is ludicrous. It isn't fair to even say that he was schizophrenic. We can say that he was ill enough, or that his family thought him ill enough to be put away. That in itself, says something, however.

Let's just get away from labeling, shall we?

Mike

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Pirate,
Didn't mean to offend. I agree with your comment, but without understanding, this is the image that has been propagated by most of the respected JtR authors. So please, don't shoot the messenger.
All the best
Dave

Hi Dave

Thank you for your polite reply. It has been pointed out to me that I can at times be a little crotchety.

And I agree we should be careful of being to critical of respectable authors who have reached conclusions you don’t agree with. As Mei Trow pointed out at the 2009 Conference, authors can only be guided by the expert opinion of their day. If that expert advice changes over a period of time then it is not entirely their fault. And when it comes to subjects like mental health expert opinion seems to change on an almost yearly basis. There are some that would like the word Schizophrenia gone altogether.

The problem when considering Aarons mental condition is that there is very little to go on. His records are merely comments on his physical condition rather than his mental state. And as Rob has pointed out terms used at the beginning of the century often varied from institution to institution and had slightly different meanings.

However most current expert opinion I have received is that Aaron was probably suffering from some form of Schizophrenia, the condition does have many variations. And of course someone dealing with schizophrenia today has different drugs and social conditions to deal with, so they can only generalize about how the illness might have affected Aaron Kosminski.

The vary word imbecile carries a lot of connotations today that doesn’t square with what we know about Schizophrenia. The condition typically starts late teens, early twenties (although some people are diagnosed much later) far from being stupid they are often comparatively high achievers. Breakdowns often happen to new university graduates. So its possible Aaron was the family golden boy they hoped would become a Rabi in his early teens, who knows?

The condition tends to hit the suffer in waves. Periods of time called psychotic episodes usually last 12-16 weeks. So its more than possible that Aaron was in the gutter one month and happily walking his dog the next. We just do not know for certain. I’m only saying that the expert opinion I have been given allows for this possibility.

I believe what Rob is trying to do is challenge our perceptions of Aaron Kosminski and add as much new factual evidence about him as possible and hopefully his new book will become the bench mark on the subject, Aaron Kosminski, in the future.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Rob,

Thank you for answering my question to Jeff. I guess his latest copy of the LVA newsletter has yet to arrive.

Simon

So I need permission to go to the loo now? I do actually work you know..

I did google LVA and got some fairly strange conections, what are you refering to?

Pirate