Kosminski..why the big secret ?

[DVV]

Eating out of the gutter and planning premeditated (he brought a knife out with him) murder and mutilation are two completely different things.

Hi M&P,

Eating in La Tour d'Argent and planning murder and mutilation are also two completely different things...!

Amitiés,
David

[Jeff Leahy]

Hello Jeff,

May I ask you something? If we say that Kosminski WAS taken to the Seaside Home, and WAS confirmed by the witness as Anderson's man. Am I correct in assuming then, that he was therefore confirmed as being the murderer of ONE of the victims only? Because I would like to know what evidence there would be of him being guilty of all five?

Or have I misunderstood this vital point? best wishes
Phil

Well thats all speculation. There are those who believe Aaron killed Stride and Stride alone. Macnaughten speculated that he killed five, Anderson six.

I'm simply saying that given what is known about schizophrenia the possibility to all conclusions remains.

Pirate

[Mascara & Paranoia]

If Aaron was responsible for the JtR murders, and I'm neither stating he was or wasnt or which murders might be JtR murders, then its quite possible that he was walking around in January 1889, perfectly normal and without a clue what had happened, may be just some disquieting nightmares/dreams.

Possible, but not probable. Eating out of the gutter and planning premeditated (he brought a knife out with him) murder and mutilation are two completely different things. I don't know how many paranoid schizophrenics have quite done that. If anything, their murders would be more random and less elusive. Whoever Jack the Ripper was knew exactly what he was doing and seemed to have had a clear mind and all his wits about him during the execution of his crimes. Entrap, subdue, slice, remove, escape. I would've thought someone of Aaron's supposed caliber would have stayed with the body longer than the estimated five-to-ten minutes that the Ripper did with his street murders (though the actual killer probably took even less time than that to have done what he did), either experimenting with the innards or just being curious by them.

That and I still wanna know where the eating-from-the-gutter-because-the-voices-told-him-so rumour[?] originated from and whether or not it could be confirmed by more than one person (specifically by the locals who knew of him in the area or, better still, those who actually knew him).

Btw, this isn't me ranting at you personally, PJ, just that the opportunity to put these thoughts out there presented themselves better when replying to you, and I kinda went off on a tangent.

[robhouse]

Hi Phil,

I assume that they would have concluded that he was the Ripper, since they apparently thought the C5 were all Ripper victims... but I am not sure about the legal technicalities. In modern serial killer cases, I believe that they only pursue conviction for the murders they can actually prove... or ones to which the killer has confessed.

For example, if the witness was Lawende, and the police had decided to actually try to convict the suspect based on the witness identification, I think they would have pursued a conviction only for the Eddowes murder. But I could be wrong here.

Is that what you meant?

Rob H

[DVV]

Well if one person is actually starting to get it its been worth while.

But its not being said that he either was or was NOT a raving lunatic.

What is being said is that Schizophrenia is an illness that develops in WAVES.

ie it comes and goes. So yes he might be completely dotty and eating out of the gutter for a period of time but one would expect that period to pass after a while (psychotic attacks 12-16 weeks). People have even learned to recognize their own illness and deal with it. Its not an either or?

If Aaron was responsible for the JtR murders, and I'm neither stating he was or wasnt or which murders might be JtR murders, then its quite possible that he was walking around in January 1889, perfectly normal and without a clue what had happened, may be just some disquieting nightmares/dreams.

Pirate

Hi Jeff,

as pointed out by Mike, eating from the gutter is clearly a paranoid issue.

Amitiés,
David

[Phil Carter]

Hello Jeff,

May I ask you something? If we say that Kosminski WAS taken to the Seaside Home, and WAS confirmed by the witness as Anderson's man. Am I correct in assuming then, that he was therefore confirmed as being the murderer of ONE of the victims only? Because I would like to know what evidence there would be of him being guilty of all five?

Or have I misunderstood this vital point?

best wishes

Phil

[Jeff Leahy]

This thread's interesting about Aaron. I hold my hands up as being one of them people who assumed he was a bit daft and the stereotyped drooling imbecile, but now having read this topic I'm not so sure that's entirely true.

Where did the thing about him eating from the gutter originate from? And was that a well known fact that was confirmed by the locals or anyone who knew him?

I still don't think he was in any way, shape or form connected to the Ripper murders, but I don't think he was the raving lunatic that we've been made to believe either. He may have had violent tendencies at times or had aggressive episodes (i.e. the knife waving), but that doesn't necessarily equate to him being psychopath or simpleton. For all we know that could've been a one-off and was as worse as he ever got.

Well if one person is actually starting to get it its been worth while.

But its not being said that he either was or was NOT a raving lunatic.

What is being said is that Schizophrenia is an illness that develops in WAVES.

ie it comes and goes. So yes he might be completely dotty and eating out of the gutter for a period of time but one would expect that period to pass after a while (psychotic attacks 12-16 weeks). People have even learned to recognize their own illness and deal with it. Its not an either or?

If Aaron was responsible for the JtR murders, and I'm neither stating he was or wasnt or which murders might be JtR murders, then its quite possible that he was walking around in January 1889, perfectly normal and without a clue what had happened, may be just some disquieting nightmares/dreams.

Pirate

[DaveMc]

So now we have Anderson as a liar, a boaster, forgetful, possibly insane, a racist, and now... the head of the Gestapo. Godwin's law succeeds again.

"Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

RH

It seems unavoidable.
If I had my wits with me I would have steered around it.
I'll have to remember the KGB the next time.
DANG IT !

Of Anderson's character, I'll take boastful and racist (and sexist and classist...) I wouldn't call him a liar beyond the scope of politics and national security, thought.
That sort of thing was part of MY culture in the 1970's. So Anderson is not out of step for his time.

He strikes me as a "matter of fact" administrator. It's not difficult at all to imagine an Occam's Razor approach to his conclusion.
Who could be committing murders in this area?
Someone who lives in this area.
How could someone keep his family and friends from seeing blood evidence of the crime?
They couldn't.
Who could see the evidence and not report it to the Police?
The Jews.
Who among the Jewish population is likely to commit insane murders?
The crazy guy with voices in his head eating from the gutter.

Straightforward, singular answers to his questions.

But, with other officers claiming that the killer had drowned in the Thames, he wasn't able to convince his own officers of Kosminski's guilt.
It doesn't matter if Anderson was certain or not.
He couldn't prove it by more means than just one witness.

None of my opinion is targeted at defaming Anderson. He was CID. His primary concern would have been the political unrest. Had he used a dragnet tactic to clean out a Fenian group, he would not be widely criticized by his culture. It would be wrong to criticize him now.
He did his job and achieved his goal.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

This thread's interesting about Aaron. I hold my hands up as being one of them people who assumed he was a bit daft and the stereotyped drooling imbecile, but now having read this topic I'm not so sure that's entirely true.

Where did the thing about him eating from the gutter originate from? And was that a well known fact that was confirmed by the locals or anyone who knew him?

I still don't think he was in any way, shape or form connected to the Ripper murders, but I don't think he was the raving lunatic that we've been made to believe either. He may have had violent tendencies at times or had aggressive episodes (i.e. the knife waving), but that doesn't necessarily equate to him being psychopath or simpleton. For all we know that could've been a one-off and was as worse as he ever got.

[Simon Wood]

And you've just proved Godwin right. Nicely done.

[robhouse]

So now we have Anderson as a liar, a boaster, forgetful, possibly insane, a racist, and now... the head of the Gestapo. Godwin's law succeeds again.

"Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies) is a humorous observation made by Mike Godwin in 1990 which has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

RH

[Simon Wood]

Hi Dave,

"[Anderson] solved the problem by locking everybody away in one form or another."

It's called compartmentalization. In intelligence circles a person's access or restriction to sensitive information is adjudged on the popularly termed "need to know" basis.

Regards,

Simon

[jason_c]

"Basically, he (Anderson) solved the problem by locking everybody away in one form or another."


Dave,

An interesting take on the matter.

We now have Anderson seriously involved in the investigation by locking numerous individuals up and threatening them. Then we have the Anderson who was hardly involved in the investigation, spending most of the time on the continent.

[DaveMc]

I'm not thorough on my opinion but I don't think they knew, beyond question, who the killer was.

One thing I picked up from Anderson's story "The Lighter Side of My Official Life" is that Anderson, according to himself, never made a mistake.
I think that when he returned to London he reviewed the case and started arresting every suspect or putting them under threat.

People like Druitt were likely threatened with public humiliation and killed themselves. It's not unreasonable that the Police visited Valentine's school with questions or information and caused his dismissal.

Others fled the country in fear of false accusation or imprisonment.
Others were faced with prosecution or accepting to be committed to institutions.

Basically, he solved the problem by locking everybody away in one form or another.

If that is, indeed, what Anderson did I would expect to see a confusion of mixed opinion among the officers.
It might also be one of several reasons for the suppression of the information.

I'm not aware of any other instance where information is destroyed or withheld for the sake of the citizenry.
When documents are hidden, it's for the selfish preservation of an individual or a close group of individuals.

I'd like to know from someone who lives in London today if the leadership of Scotland Yard or Home Office in 2010 would expose a Gestapo-like tactic from 1888 or would they see it as an embarrassment and still want it kept a secret.

[jason_c]

I wish I could find Major Heny Smith's quote concerning Jews. It was along the lines of them being innocent of committing any crime in the East End.

Can anyone provide the quote?
Jason C

Jason:

This is what you were asking for:

"Sir Robert talks of the "Lighter Side" of his Official Life." There is nothing "light" here ; a heavier indictment could not be framed against a class whose conduct contrasts most favourably with that of the Gentile population of the Metropolis.--Chapter 16, "From Constable To Commissioner,"

Jason, in terms of hooliganism, street prostitution, assaults...Jews are disproportionately underrepresented considering their numbers in the immediate vicinity.
However, in the realm of gambling, from my experience in newspaper trawling, Jews are represented equally if not in larger numbers than their population at large. Several gambling house raids mention quite a few local Jews.

Hope this helps. Some other comments may be found here:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?p=96216#post96216

Howard,

Thank you for the reply. I dont think that's the actual quote I was after. The quote from Smith I was thinking of is even stronger and more outlandish. It was along the lines of Jews never having committed a crime in the East End. Its an outlandish statement from him and im determined to find it as it would suggest Smith's anti Anderson, pro Jewish stance was more political and ideological rather than dealing accurately with the subject.