We have him...

[Suzi]

Hello Archaic,

It has certainly taught me a few things... and de Mouchi is new to me as well.
Gives meaning to the Englishism of "mooching around" perhaps? lol

best wishes

Phil

P'raps just flying around? LOL x OR just hanging/ buzzing around unwanted - like flies!!!

[Suzi]

La Mouche in French is 'A Fly'....... interesting......

[Debra A]

Maybe it would be helpful if we could come up with a source for the very first application of the term "en mouchard" to Grande- who was it that gave him this appellation?

If it was a Frenchman, it's likely he used the original French meaning of 'police spy' or 'secret police'. This might subsequently have been translated into English with a slightly altered meaning.
If it was an Englishman or someone of another nationality who first labeled Le Grand a 'mouchard', maybe he understood 'mouchard' as being a direct synonym for 'nark' and was actually saying that Grande was a 'police informer' or a 'nose'?

It was an Englishman, Archaic, and as Tom is writing something on Legrand soon it's probably best left to him to interpret. I'm not disagreeing with your definition as regards LeGrand, just saying that the the other definition also applied in that period too.
Le Grand was first and foremost a crook, the private detective business was hardly upto Pinkerton's standards.

[Archaic]

Hi, Debs.

I looked up "nark" just out of curiosity, because I'm used to seeing it spelled with a "c" as in "narc".

I had assumed it was short for "narcotics", but according to the dictionary "nark" goes back to at least 1839 and is British slang for "a police informer".
Funny that it has nothing to do with narcotics per se- apparently it comes from the old Gypsy word for "nose"!

Maybe it would be helpful if we could come up with a source for the very first application of the term "en mouchard" to Grande- who was it that gave him this appellation?

If it was a Frenchman, it's likely he used the original French meaning of 'police spy' or 'secret police'. This might subsequently have been translated into English with a slightly altered meaning.
If it was an Englishman or someone of another nationality who first labeled Le Grand a 'mouchard', maybe he understood 'mouchard' as being a direct synonym for 'nark' and was actually saying that Grande was a 'police informer' or a 'nose'?

Slang changes rapidly over time and by region, and sometimes subtle aspects of the original meaning are lost in translation.

'Mouchard' and 'Nark' are very close in meaning, but unfortunately put Le Grand on opposite sides of the fence.

Best regards, Archaic

[Debra A]

Some 1890's newspaper articles have 'en mouchard' down as 'a copper's nark' so I wouldn't say it was an entirely modern meaning.

[Archaic]

Thanks very much Tom & Phil; glad I could be of assistance.

I'm fond of the obscure and the archaic- hence the name.

If anybody wants to know some of the secret sexual obscenities concealed in Shakespeare's slang, just ask.

Best regards, Archaic

[lynn cates]

Romans go home

Hello Phil and Chris. Latin?

Romani ite domum!

LC

[Phil Carter]

Thanks for that, Archaic. I think you've nailed it. The term does indeed refer to Le Grand's work as a private detective.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom,

Agreed. Nailed. Mouchard has, like many words, "developed" with time. Archaic seems to have got to the bottom of it. Well done that researcher!

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Thanks for that, Archaic. I think you've nailed it. The term does indeed refer to Le Grand's work as a private detective.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Archaic,

It has certainly taught me a few things... and de Mouchi is new to me as well.
Gives meaning to the Englishism of "mooching around" perhaps? lol

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

1901 Explanation of "Mouchard"

Hi, folks.
There are often certain regional nuances given to slang terms like "en mouchard", and its modern meaning may be slightly different from its original meaning, but I found a 1901 article which explains its origins.

Apparently it derives from the name of a real person, Mouchi.

Here is the 1901 article in full:

"Mouchard," Police Spy.

—"In view of the Czar's visit," the Paris correspondent of the Daily News of 28 August says, "the papers are full of information about detectives, the slang name for whom is 'mouchard.' The Liberté assures us that this word dates back to the time of the Reformation. King Francis the First, under whom the persecution of Protestants began in
earnest, appointed a theologian of the University of Paris named Antoine de Mouchi to be Inquisitor.

This Mouchi showed such zeal in ferreting out heretics and in sending them to the stake that the people of Paris, among whom the Reformation had many secret sympathisers, gave the name of 'Mouchard' to the inquisitor's private informer, and the word was by degrees applied to all the agents of the secret police. '

Littré says :—"Mouchard paraît venir de mouche, qui s'est dit pour espion. Cependant Mézeray (' Règne de François II.'} dit, en parlant de Mouchares, théologien de Paris et inquisiteur pour la foi, qu'il se nommait de Mouchy et que les espions s'appelaient mouchards, étymologie adoptée par Voltaire, ' Hist. Parlem.,' ch. xxi."


I find word origins and slang definitions very interesting; hope this helps.

Best regards, Archaic

[chrisjd]

Phil,

ultra posse nemo obligatur

;-)

C

[Phil Carter]

Hi Debs, Mike

sorry, I'm with the Grave: My Latin at school was when Caesar ruled.

I've never heard that saying before. I may get the words, but not the meaning.

C

Chris,

Humanum errare est ..... it is human to err

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Debs,

Yes, you're the angel chasing the devil in the details. I only have internet access at work right now. This is why my posts are often rushed and error-riddled! Sorry to hear about the virus. I've been sick twice in the last month myself.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[chrisjd]

Hi Debs, Mike

sorry, I'm with the Grave: My Latin at school was when Caesar ruled.

I've never heard that saying before. I may get the words, but not the meaning.

C