Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[auspirograph]

Hi there Moriarty,

Don't look back, Sherlock's on your tail...

The plural, the American quack Francis Tumblety, was not proposed "from nowhere" as you have suggested but "amongst the suspects" by no less a source as ex-Chief Inspector John George Littlechild. You appear to have missed that part.

[Tom_Wescott]

Just so we're all clear, Robert Mann is not a 'new name' introducted by Meirion James Troy. He's been in a dozen books and discussed on these boards in his actual capacity - that of a workhouse inmate cum mortuary attendant. He's also NOT a 'suspect', but instead is a man who has had an accusation made against him. The only saving grace of this is I hear there's an unrated version of the documentary where John Bennett is interviewed shirtless.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[John Bennett]

John,

The way I remember it was that Mei showed surprise and delight when you showed him the map and was that you ? who led him to the location where the mortuary would have been ? It seemed clear to me, that Meir didn't know this, until you showed him the location on the map, in fact, I think Meir even said so in the programme. If memory serves me right. Which I thought it was interesting, because it added more to his theory.

Basically, it was like this.

Mei knew where the workhouse was, but not the precise location of the mortuary. He knew it as being 'Old Montague Street' or 'Pavilion Yard' or 'Eagle Place'. Having wandered around the area a few times, he could see no clues as to the mortuary's location.

The director of the documentary deliberately kept Mei in the dark about what I was going to show him. The film shows his response on finding out. The 'walkabout' sequences were filmed about a fortnight later.

As Colin suggests, these locations were known long before by numerous folks and personally, I don't believe it has any bearing on Mann's candidacy as the Ripper. But it was obviously important to Mei. And that's all there was to it, really.

[John Bennett]

The only saving grace of this is I hear there's an unrated version of the documentary where John Bennett is interviewed shirtless.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

You wish.

[Stewart P Evans]

Nowhere?

...as when, from nowhere, American quacks are proposed as a prime suspect....

From nowhere?...quacks?...oh I see that someone has already answered this one, many thanks for that Spiro.

[John Bennett]

Hi there Moriarty,

Don't look back, Sherlock's on your tail...

The plural, the American quack Francis Tumblety, was not proposed "from nowhere" as you have suggested but "amongst the suspects" by no less a source as ex-Chief Inspector John George Littlechild. You appear to have missed that part.

Absolutely.

And don't forget the numerous American press reports of the time...

[Trevor Marriott]

So far I have been relatively quiet on this thread save to agree with the majority that Mann is not a viable suspect and should not be considered any type of suspect.

However it would be wrong if i did not use Mann to add more weight to the theory that the organs of Chapman and Eddowes were not removed by the killer at the scene but at the mortuary before the post mortems were carried out.

In this post i will deal solely with Chapman as we know Eddowes body was taken to another mortuary where Mann had no access to.

In the case of Chapman these are the facts.

1. The body was left many hours before the post mortems were carried out.

2. Mann was mortuary keeper

3. He was never told to not touch the body or to not let anyone else touch
the body.

4. The Anatomy Act 1832 allowed bona fide medical personel to lawfully
remove organs from bodies at either hospitals or workhouse mortuarys. I
would imaging that first thing every morning these bona fide persons
would have done the rounds looking for organs.

As this was an every day occurence and Mann would have been aware of
that, what would have made that morning any different ? I would
suggest nothing.


I have previoulsy suggested that a mortuary keeper could have turned a
blind eye for some financial reward which in the case of Mann being a
pauper would be quite plausible. However it may be the case that it was
just an accepted thing for these people to come and take the organs
and Mann knew that.


Obviously when Mann was made aware that the body should not have
been touched and that an organ was missing he perhaps got himself into a
state hence how he was in the witness box.

i am afraid folks the killer removing the organs theory is now becoming
more and more unlilely. Even my experts agree with me !!!!!!!

So now in addittion to being an expert geographical profiler i am now an
expert in pathology.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Trevor,

But Mann wasn't left alone with Chapman's body, and apparently there was no suggestion by the doctors that Chapman had been 'tampered' with following her removal from the murder scene.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

kinds of Jack

Hello Mr. Marriott. I'm not sure I've heard this idea before. You're saying--Annie (and perhaps Kate?) had their organs removed, not in situ, but at a later date and location? That is quite fascinating!

I wonder what would be the difference in the 2 kinds of Jack pointed to with and without missing organs? Presumably a sexual serial killer would be less interested in organs and more so in just cutting/ripping. A violent thug type Jack might be interested in a financial compensation. Something along those lines?

The best.
LC

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

There's a few theories about this, and all of them came from the contemporary press, more or less. Bob Hinton suggested a dog or giant rat might have carried them off from the murder scenes. Some have suggested they fell off the clunky ambulances en route to the mortuary. And apparently Trevor thinks they may have gone missing at the mortuary. There is, of course, not a single reason to think any of this was the case. There's little doubt but that the murderer took them with him.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[The Grave Maurice]

And, whatever you do, don't ask how Marriott explains the bloody piece of apron found in Goulston Street.

[Septic Blue]

Whitechapel Union Infirmary / Infirmary Mortuary (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Blue: The Hamlet of Mile End New Town
Green: The Parish of St. Matthew Bethnal Green
Yellow: The Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel

According to Google Earth:

From the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town …

- South-Southeast along Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town: 136.32 Yards
- Southwest along Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town: 101.49 Yards
- South-Southeast along Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town: 35.65 Yards
- Southwest across cul-de-sac at southern end of Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town: 11.47 Yards

- Total Distance: 284.93 Yards

Perhaps, a three-minute walk! ...

In this instance, the mortuary and the work-house where Mann lived are only 5 minutes walk and THIS is the real find.

I guess that just about proves that Robert Mann was 'Jack the Ripper'!

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Tom. Thanks for the clarification.

Cheers.
LC

[Bob Hinton]

Not really...

Lynn,
Bob Hinton suggested a dog or giant rat might have carried them off from the murder scenes.
Tom Wescott

No, I suggested a rat may have made off with the missing part of Eddowe's kidney. Not a giant rat, just an ordinary size one would have sufficed.

I base this on my observations of rats doing similar things during my time stationed abroad. I can assure you a rat has no fear of humans and would quite happily dash out and grab a bit of food in broad daylight. In fact I witnessed this happening the other day outside the railway station in Llanelli. A child in a pushchair dropped a bit of pasty he was eating and it just hit the ground when a rat ran out of a hole in the wall, grabbed it and ran back in. Why people find the idea of rats eating bits of bodies so unbelievable I have no idea. Rats eat food and a body is just food to a rat.

A tasty bit of kidney in a darkened Mitre Square would be a real temptation. There are many contemporary accounts of rats taking food from tables etc in the East End.

[Tom_Wescott]

Well, it seems unbelievable because Eddowes' body was not left alone for long, no one reported rat activity in or near her (they leave footprints in blood too), and there's no reason to think the Ripper went to the trouble of removing a part of her kidney to toss it handily aside for a rat to pick it up and go. While it's not beyond the realm of possibility (what is?), the idea just doesn't work and there's absolutely zero evidence to assume the Ripper didn't take Eddowes' kidney like he did Chapman's uterus and Kelly's heart...and Eddowes' uterus, for that matter.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott