Robert Mann - A 'New' Suspect

[Supe]

Pimperenel,

By the looks of it, you have not watched the programme either. It is all too easy to shoot down a new suspect if you haven't even seen the programme and it seems to me, that it is you who is getting all confused with the different ill informed comments like TJ's.

Did you even read my posts on this thread? I said nothing at all about the candidacy of Robert Mann. I simply followed up on Stewart's post that you were quite wrong in saying that locals were not suspected by the police in 1888 or by theorists today. That was arrant nonsense on your part.

Don.

[tji]

Pimperenel,

By the looks of it, you have not watched the programme either. It is all too easy to shoot down a new suspect if you haven't even seen the programme and it seems to me, that it is you who is getting all confused with the different ill informed comments like TJ's


Perhaps you should come down from the high horse you are on there and take a breath.

I don't see how my comments are ill informed - (or Supe's for that matter)maybe I wasn't as concise as I should have been but that is about it.

Yes I watched the show - (as I stated first time round!) however I don't believe for one minute that clay pipe Alice was a jtr vic, so forgot to add her into my summation.

simple as that.

tj

[John Bennett]

Mortuary

Its location has been known for quite some time!

Absolutley.

Unfortunately, the documentary made it sound like I came up with the idea of superimposing maps to find it, which is obviously not the case.

However, with all due respect to Mei, he didn't know the exact location of the mortuary until I told him. And that was whenl we were filming the sequence itself.

[Roy Corduroy]

About that location-



From the appendix to Hints on Sanitary Law: by George Chambers 1884

[Doppelganger]

Greetings all I don`t these new suspects have we not already debated Walter Sickert, Aaron Kosminski, Montague Druitt to death as theories go Robert Mann is just as likely or unlikely as anyone else.

[Stewart P Evans]

Nothing

Nothing new of factual nature and relevant to the case was produced and nothing to suggest that Mann was, or should be, a suspect was produced. Ergo, there is nothing to suggest that we should look upon Mann as a suspect.

[Stewart P Evans]

Star

Absolutley.
Unfortunately, the documentary made it sound like I came up with the idea of superimposing maps to find it, which is obviously not the case.
However, with all due respect to Mei, he didn't know the exact location of the mortuary until I told him. And that was whenl we were filming the sequence itself.

John Bennett - a star in the making...

[Jem.R.Salmon]

Jem R Salmon,

Well it was the psychologist, professor Lawrence Allison from the university of Liverpool who suggested the Tabram incident and the other psychological trends from his own experience about sexual killers. Meir Trow asked the professor in a scale of 1 to 10 how much credence would he give to this particular suspect. The professor answer was: Eight. of what he knows so far, about this case. So I find it very good that Meir Trow sought several experts in their field, to explore this new suspect and as I said before.. this new suspect is as good as any other suspect and better than most.

I have heard people here write: I do not believe in this author's suspect because he is only trying to sell a book. Jem... tell me how many JTR authors have written a book for free ? so comments from these people are rather strange. Every author wants to sell their books, that's natural, and good luck to them if they do. I found that I could not get a copy of Meir Trow's book because it has sold out. So I will have to wait until they print some more.

Two points:

1) It was Not the professor Lawrence Allison who suggested the tabram incident it was Trow. Trow then asked him, after expalining Mann's background how likely this incident (The after death mutilation) was to occur if Mann was to stumble on the body. This reply was, as you correctly state 8 out of ten.

I.E. the proffessor was commenting on Mann mutilating the corpse, not on stumbling upon Tabram.

2) I have read lots of good books on JTR as well as some pretty poor ones. While i understanding any author is hoping to sell books, inveriably the better ones tend to back up the essence of their theories on some level of factual evidence. All i am saying is that Trow does not seem to be able to back up some major points within his theory.

If Trow is out to sell a book then good luck to him. I have no particular axe to grind and do realise the fact that he has brought forward a new name to the table - I am just not convinced how credible.

[scarletpimpernel]

Absolutley.

Unfortunately, the documentary made it sound like I came up with the idea of superimposing maps to find it, which is obviously not the case.

However, with all due respect to Mei, he didn't know the exact location of the mortuary until I told him. And that was whenl we were filming the sequence itself.

John,

The way I remember it was that Mei showed surprise and delight when you showed him the map and was that you ? who led him to the location where the mortuary would have been ? It seemed clear to me, that Meir didn't know this, until you showed him the location on the map, in fact, I think Meir even said so in the programme. If memory serves me right. Which I thought it was interesting, because it added more to his theory.

[scarletpimpernel]

Jem. Salmon

Well, I doubt very much that the whole book was presented in the programme. Often, authors send teasers out, to more or less show what's in their book. Meir Trow has presented his suspect and one of the excellent points he has raised was the accessibility between the two places for the killer to hide without raising suspicions, even if people saw Mann with blood on his hands, since that was his job at the morgue. The hiding places seem to me the ideal place for not raising any suspicions at all. it would have been right under the police's noses, in plain sight as it were, and yet not be caught and that was exactly the case.

[scarletpimpernel]

Hi all,

Even if this location had been known for a long time, what really counts is that Meir tied it up with where the location of his suspect living quarters was, which was really minutes away. The analogy of this is : to knowing a few words in English but words if you do not string them into sentences, don't make any sense, they are just isolated, like bricks, you can get a thousand building bricks but if you do not put them together, you will never make a building, it will always just amount to a pile of bricks. In this instance, the mortuary and the work-house where Mann lived are only 5 minutes walk and THIS is the real find. Not if the location of the mortuary was known ages ago. Do you see what I mean ?

[The Good Michael]

SP,

It looks to me that Mann was chosen simply because his name was found and a somewhat convincing case could be made because there wasn't enough information to refute it. I daresay that any of us could randomly pick 10 or 20 people from the 1991 census and see what jobs they had, where they lived (proximity to the murder scenes), find that there is no further information about these people, and then build a case for the one that fits our purposes. We may base it upon age, location, occupation, marital status, and religion, or anything. Then, because there is no further information to be gleaned, we can build our case for our suspect. It isn't hard and it's what seems to happen often. I do like the peripheral knowledge one often gains from reading about new "suspects", but the process makes then unlikely at the very least. This goes for Mann, of course.

Cheers,

Mike

[Septic Blue]

Even if this location had been known for a long time, what really counts is that Meir tied it up with where the location of his suspect living quarters was, which was really minutes away. ... In this instance, the mortuary and the work-house where Mann lived are only 5 minutes walk and THIS is the real find. Not if the location of the mortuary was known ages ago. Do you see what I mean ?

No! I do not see what you mean!

The locations of the mortuary and Union Infirmary were both known "ages ago"!

[ATTACH]6819[/ATTACH]
Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary / Casual Ward, Baker's Row / Thomas Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town / Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

[ATTACH]6820[/ATTACH]
Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary, Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Click to View in flickr)

[ATTACH]6821[/ATTACH]
Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary / Casual Ward, Baker's Row / Thomas Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town / Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to View in flickr)

[ATTACH]6822[/ATTACH]
Site of Whitechapel Union Casual Ward, Thomas Street, Parish of St. Mary Whitechapel (Click to View in flickr)

[ATTACH]6823[/ATTACH]
Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary, Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

[ATTACH]6824[/ATTACH]
Site of Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary, Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town (Click to View in flickr)

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[ATTACH]6818[/ATTACH]
Figure 10: Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center (Elliptical Perspective): Aaron Kosminski; Robert Mann (Mortuary); Robert Mann (Union Infirmary) (Click to View in flickr)
Underlying Aerial Imagery: Copyright Google Earth, 2007
Overlying Plots, Labels and Color-Shadings: Copyright Colin C. Roberts, 2009

Red Dot (Smaller Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary Mortuary

Eagle Place, Old Montague Street, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 52.22" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 8.12" North

Smaller Green Ellipse: 0.73 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

---

Red Dot (Larger Green Ellipse): Whitechapel Union Infirmary

Baker's Row, Hamlet of Mile End New Town, County of Middlesex
Longitude: 0° 3' 50.14" West
Latitude: 51° 31' 14.66" North

Larger Green Ellipse: 0.94 Standard Deviations from Murder-Site Mean-Center

I took the ground-level photographs, using the aerial imagery as my 'guide', in October 2007. It was obvious then, that the mortuary and Union Infirmary were "only 5 minutes walk".

What is actually unusual is the fact that a Union Infirmary and its mortuary, in this instance, should be that distantly removed from each other. I believe that I know the reasoning, in this particular case; and I will be happy to explain (later today), if anyone is interested.

What this means, of course, is that Mann's freedom of movement was limited to the "5 minutes walk", between the two facilities (i.e. mortuary and infirmary); thus enabling the Guardians of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union to hold him strictly accountable for his whereabouts.

Robert Mann was apparently a life-long ward of the Whitechapel Poor Law Union; and was in all likelihood, confined to the Whitechapel Union Infirmary, during the autumn of 1888.

Until this issue is sufficiently addressed by someone having at least a rudimentary understanding of the English Poor Law and some of its major facets (e.g. the Poor Law Amendment Act 1834), Mann cannot possibly be considered a person of interest, let alone a 'suspect'.

Robert Mann is an outright non-starter!

[lynn cates]

quickie

Hello Septic. The 5 minutes walking time, then, would have precluded even a 7 minute quickie for Mann as in the Eddowes case.

Thanks!

Cheers.
LC

[Moriarty]

And so the Ripper bandwagon trundles into life again. Periodically Ripperworld falls into a state of semi-quietude with nothing much to discuss of a constructive nature.

...as when, from nowhere, American quacks are proposed as a prime suspect....