Jack the........ Police Officer??

[Nick Spring]

I think that's right, it looks personal but not by someone who knew Kelly.

These were tight communities people knew each other and far too much risk to select a known person.

I think it was personal to the murderer because they could act out the ultimate fantasy.

Still risk involved as part of the thrill.

Best

Nick

[caz]

But such details as Kelly, "...was living alone since Barnett left" could have been learned through conversation in the early minutes of their first meeting.

Kelly: - "No, not down any back alley, I have a room and a bed"
Stranger: - "Oh really, you mean you live alone?"
Kelly: "Since my man left yes, I have to make ends meet on my own now".

Hi Jon,

To me this seems by far the most likely explanation. Kelly's circumstances had recently changed for the worse, making her an ideal new target for a serial killer who may have been forced off the streets when the double killing made them too hot, or the unfortunates too wary, during October.

It would be rather a coincidence, I feel, if the ripper knew Kelly personally but wasn't Barnett. He couldn't have engineered Barnett's timely departure from Kelly's bed, and her dire need for paying customers, just when he was ready to kill again. Not only that, but a stranger to Kelly - and crucially - to her room, would stand an infinitely better chance of getting away with this murder than anyone who could be associated with her or with Miller's Court in some way.

Therefore I can't see the ripper losing his advantage, in order to kill someone he was known to associate with, in a room he may have visited before. Similarly a one-off killer would have been taking a horrendous risk, doing the deed on a familiar bed on a familiar woman. Chances are he would have been caught and hanged as the ripper as well as Kelly's destroyer. And that strongly argues against someone setting out to make it look like Jack's work, because he could so easily have attacked her outdoors instead, away from her home in some dark alley, just another completely anonymous prostitute killing. Who among us would now be looking so closely at Barnett, McCarthy, Fleming and the rest?

The very fact that this murder took place where it did, and remains unsolved, leads me to doubt that Kelly's killer had any prior connection with her or with Miller's Court. I certainly don't think a copper, on his own patch or away from it, would have risked an indoor killing like that if Kelly knew him by name or by sight.

Love,

Caz
X

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jason,
I agree to a point , however, we should not forget the effect these murders had on unfortunates, they were only too aware of the dangers they faced in soliciting the streets, and in respect of Mary we have the awareness of the danger spoken to Mrs McCarthy the very day previous to her death.'' He is a concern isn't he, I hear he his ripe in this area''.
I would suggest that this implies, she would never have gone with , or invited any man back to her room that she was not confident with.
If she did then it had to have been something that put her off guard.
How about letting a punter come to her room in daylight?
Regards Richard.

[Wickerman]

...
That would not give us any named suspect, but I bet a pound to a penny, the killer was someone with a personal knowledge of Dorset Street, and had his eye on Mary Kelly for some time.
Regards Richard.

If the killer was a person who was a frequent customer of these women, then it is quite possible she knew several of them personally.

Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag.
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

Kelly may have known many clients, and they her. In fact because these women tended to frequent the same streets, claim a 'patch' if you like, then there is a good chance her clientele were regulars.
Strangers may have been the exception, rather than the rule, for those who ply their trade well away from the docks.

[pinkmoon]

Hi curious,
I would say that it is very likely, that even if the killer of Kelly was not someone that she was familiar with, it was someone who knew of her daily habits, and may have been watching her , waiting for a opportunity .
That would not give us any named suspect, but I bet a pound to a penny, the killer was someone with a personal knowledge of Dorset Street, and had his eye on Mary Kelly for some time.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,we have to remember that these women were in a pretty desperate state living hand to mouth Kelly herself was in arrears with her rent this fact would account for her not been to fussy who she let in the more men she saw the more money she made.

[richardnunweek]

Hi curious,
I would say that it is very likely, that even if the killer of Kelly was not someone that she was familiar with, it was someone who knew of her daily habits, and may have been watching her , waiting for a opportunity .
That would not give us any named suspect, but I bet a pound to a penny, the killer was someone with a personal knowledge of Dorset Street, and had his eye on Mary Kelly for some time.
Regards Richard.

[Errata]

Hello, Richard,
So you're agreeing with Errata here. The killer's knowledge of those two things must narrow down the number of people who could possibly be the killer.

Are you saying that you believe it was someone who knew Mary Kelly well -- perhaps even a neighbor?

curious

My feeling has always been that Mary Kelly's murder was far more personal than the others. Enough so that it makes me doubt whether or not she was killed by the Ripper. Or if the Ripper was literally building up to the victim he wanted most, which was her. Which happens occasionally. But there is a lot of symbolism that can be read into her mutilation that would point to someone who knew her. Maybe even was obsessed with her.

And if you think about it, a cop is kind of a perfect candidate. It is true that when a stalker reaches a certain level of crazy, it becomes "Oh, she's tying her apron in a double knot instead of a bow. That's how she tells me that she loves me". But it is worse (rage wise) when the victim actively engages the stalker, smiles, is polite, laughs, even flirts a little. Which is exactly how a known prostitute would treat a cop. Be nice to him and maybe he won't bust you. Bat your eyelashes and laugh at his jokes and maybe he won't notice how drunk you are, or the john you were taking back to your place. Even today vice cops have to constantly be told to not form individual attachments. It's too easy to respond to some damsel in distress fantasy.

And if you are looking at a cop to be the Ripper, and it needs to not be a local cop (because they would be too recognizable), and if Mary Kelly's murder was the product of an obsession.... Mary Kelly didn't start her career in Whitechapel. She started in the theater district. If a cop became obsessed with her, it could have been there. So he wouldn't be local to Whitechapel.

I mean, if I was writing this story I would have a cop from that district become obsessed with her, become enraged when she allowed alcohol to lay her so low, get increasingly jealous of johns, and when she has to move to a cheap district I would write that it triggered a psychotic break in that cop. I would write that he blamed drinking and other prostitutes for laying her so low. I would write that seeing what Kelly was destined to become (an old alcoholic syphilitic barren whore) that he felt the need to obliterate that image. He killed Chapman and Eddowes, etc. Because they were what she would become, and he hated that. And he was angry at her for being on that path. And what her lifestyle was robbing him of. And finally, confronted with a drunk object of his obsession with a john, he finally decided that the only way she wouldn't be ruined is if she was dead. And he punished her for not choosing him. For not being what he wanted her to be.

Pure fiction, but that's how I would write it.

[Bridewell]

Adding a policeman to this list doesn't make him any more likely than the next man, there are thousands of possible suspects. What is needed is not guesswork, but justification to suspect anyone.

Well said!

[Wickerman]

Don't think you could write dialogue . . .

But since that was her business, I suppose it could have happened that way. She wouldn't be protecting herself the way most single women would have.

I cant see her saying, "we could be interrupted any moment by my man", being good for business.
In her attempt to make her client feel comfortable she will obviously expose herself to danger. That fact is commonly understood.

OR since she appears to have been mostly undressed, perhaps it was someone with that knowledge.

Being undressed is likely the result of the chosen location - the bed.
Sex in a bed fully clothed is hardly practical.

Getting back to this thread: Do you think there were police officers who knew Kelly well enough to have that knowledge? Didn't Dew's comments seem to suggest that? Don't officers normally know about the notorious characters on their beats?

curious

Tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor.
Richman, poorman, beggarman, thief.

Adding a policeman to this list doesn't make him any more likely than the next man, there are thousands of possible suspects. What is needed is not guesswork, but justification to suspect anyone.

[curious]

But such details as Kelly, "...was living alone since Barnett left" could have been learned through conversation in the early minutes of their first meeting.

Kelly: - "No, not down any back alley, I have a room and a bed"
Stranger: - "Oh really, you mean you live alone?"
Kelly: "Since my man left yes, I have to make ends meet on my own now".

Don't think you could write dialogue . . .

But since that was her business, I suppose it could have happened that way. She wouldn't be protecting herself the way most single women would have.

OR since she appears to have been mostly undressed, perhaps it was someone with that knowledge.

and that thought opens up possibilities.

Getting back to this thread: Do you think there were police officers who knew Kelly well enough to have that knowledge? Didn't Dew's comments seem to suggest that? Don't officers normally know about the notorious characters on their beats?

curious

[Wickerman]

But such details as Kelly, "...was living alone since Barnett left" could have been learned through conversation in the early minutes of their first meeting.

Kelly: - "No, not down any back alley, I have a room and a bed"
Stranger: - "Oh really, you mean you live alone?"
Kelly: "Since my man left yes, I have to make ends meet on my own now".

[curious]

That is why I believe his intention was to be selective , and because of that possibly singled out Mary Kelly who he knew not only had a room of her own , but was living alone since Barnett left.

Regards Richard.

Hello, Richard,
So you're agreeing with Errata here. The killer's knowledge of those two things must narrow down the number of people who could possibly be the killer.

Are you saying that you believe it was someone who knew Mary Kelly well -- perhaps even a neighbor?

curious

[downonwhores]

Peter Vrosky

Has anyone read Peter Vrosky's Book Serial Killers in which he provides evidence that Jack wasn't the first so-called modern serial killer but he actually copied to a tee serial killers that occured from the 1870's to early 1880's in Italy. All the victims were prostitutes and were strangled first then had their throat slit and mutilation of the genital area including the removal of the kidney and the uterus removed. Sound familiar? Could Jack have been a sailor or immigrant from the mainland of Europe like most of Whitechapel was as that time then Jack could have copied the killings after reading about them in the newspapers or possibly in the ports where they occured if Jack was an immigrant or sailor? I'd like your opinion.

[Jason]

Quite possibly the case Richard , but would a seemingly risk-oblivious individual been able to subdue the urge to kill for five weeks ? There was plenty of other street ladies still working in October , and what better message to send out to the community or police than to kill when they were supposedly out in numbers ? I am not sure he would have been so controlled . I think it more likely that his daily environment was suffocated by the influx of numbers , in particular the possibility of having a beat partner .

[richardnunweek]

Hello Jason.
Well it certainly stopped his regular routine in its tracks.
After the double event the Ripper scare became hysteria , and the killer would have had to think seriously, when and how. his next victim was to be dispatched
That is why I believe his intention was to be selective , and because of that possibly singled out Mary Kelly who he knew not only had a room of her own , but was living alone since Barnett left.
Because of this he had no need to venture out at night into the guarded streets, he had a safe place to commit murder in daylight
Which is my honest opinion happened.
Regards Richard.