Jack the........ Police Officer??

[richardnunweek]

Hi curious,
I would say that it is very likely, that even if the killer of Kelly was not someone that she was familiar with, it was someone who knew of her daily habits, and may have been watching her , waiting for a opportunity .
That would not give us any named suspect, but I bet a pound to a penny, the killer was someone with a personal knowledge of Dorset Street, and had his eye on Mary Kelly for some time.
Regards Richard.

[pinkmoon]

Hi curious,
I would say that it is very likely, that even if the killer of Kelly was not someone that she was familiar with, it was someone who knew of her daily habits, and may have been watching her , waiting for a opportunity .
That would not give us any named suspect, but I bet a pound to a penny, the killer was someone with a personal knowledge of Dorset Street, and had his eye on Mary Kelly for some time.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard,we have to remember that these women were in a pretty desperate state living hand to mouth Kelly herself was in arrears with her rent this fact would account for her not been to fussy who she let in the more men she saw the more money she made.

[Wickerman]

...
That would not give us any named suspect, but I bet a pound to a penny, the killer was someone with a personal knowledge of Dorset Street, and had his eye on Mary Kelly for some time.
Regards Richard.

If the killer was a person who was a frequent customer of these women, then it is quite possible she knew several of them personally.

Harry Bowyer states that on Wednesday night he saw a man speaking to Kelly who resembled the description given by the fruiterer of the supposed Berner Street murderer. He was, perhaps, 27 or 28 and had a dark moustache and very peculiar eyes. His appearance was rather smart and attention was drawn to him by showing very white cuffs and a rather long white collar, the ends of which came down in front over a black coat. He did not carry a bag.
Western Mail, 12 Nov. 1888.

Kelly may have known many clients, and they her. In fact because these women tended to frequent the same streets, claim a 'patch' if you like, then there is a good chance her clientele were regulars.
Strangers may have been the exception, rather than the rule, for those who ply their trade well away from the docks.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Jason,
I agree to a point , however, we should not forget the effect these murders had on unfortunates, they were only too aware of the dangers they faced in soliciting the streets, and in respect of Mary we have the awareness of the danger spoken to Mrs McCarthy the very day previous to her death.'' He is a concern isn't he, I hear he his ripe in this area''.
I would suggest that this implies, she would never have gone with , or invited any man back to her room that she was not confident with.
If she did then it had to have been something that put her off guard.
How about letting a punter come to her room in daylight?
Regards Richard.

[caz]

But such details as Kelly, "...was living alone since Barnett left" could have been learned through conversation in the early minutes of their first meeting.

Kelly: - "No, not down any back alley, I have a room and a bed"
Stranger: - "Oh really, you mean you live alone?"
Kelly: "Since my man left yes, I have to make ends meet on my own now".

Hi Jon,

To me this seems by far the most likely explanation. Kelly's circumstances had recently changed for the worse, making her an ideal new target for a serial killer who may have been forced off the streets when the double killing made them too hot, or the unfortunates too wary, during October.

It would be rather a coincidence, I feel, if the ripper knew Kelly personally but wasn't Barnett. He couldn't have engineered Barnett's timely departure from Kelly's bed, and her dire need for paying customers, just when he was ready to kill again. Not only that, but a stranger to Kelly - and crucially - to her room, would stand an infinitely better chance of getting away with this murder than anyone who could be associated with her or with Miller's Court in some way.

Therefore I can't see the ripper losing his advantage, in order to kill someone he was known to associate with, in a room he may have visited before. Similarly a one-off killer would have been taking a horrendous risk, doing the deed on a familiar bed on a familiar woman. Chances are he would have been caught and hanged as the ripper as well as Kelly's destroyer. And that strongly argues against someone setting out to make it look like Jack's work, because he could so easily have attacked her outdoors instead, away from her home in some dark alley, just another completely anonymous prostitute killing. Who among us would now be looking so closely at Barnett, McCarthy, Fleming and the rest?

The very fact that this murder took place where it did, and remains unsolved, leads me to doubt that Kelly's killer had any prior connection with her or with Miller's Court. I certainly don't think a copper, on his own patch or away from it, would have risked an indoor killing like that if Kelly knew him by name or by sight.

Love,

Caz
X

[Nick Spring]

I think that's right, it looks personal but not by someone who knew Kelly.

These were tight communities people knew each other and far too much risk to select a known person.

I think it was personal to the murderer because they could act out the ultimate fantasy.

Still risk involved as part of the thrill.

Best

Nick

[Abby Normal]

I find it amazing that whenever discussions come up on who killed Kelly that Blotchy is never mentioned. NEVER. Why people? He is the last credible suspect seen with Kelly and discounting hutches dubious story, she is never seen alive again after being seen by a credible witness entering her home with him, never seen out later that night, and blotchy is never seen leaving.

He never comes forward and is never found. He matches the description given by another credible witness, Lawende , of a rather fair haired man and dressed the same.

I think it rather shortsighted that he is so often left out of the equation and The MK/blotchy sighting can tell us something.

Would MK be so quick to bring a total stranger home so soon after the breakup with Barnett and the ripper scare at it height? I doubt it and ther actions together suggest they knew each other at least casually (he need not be a former customer) and that she felt comfortable with him, enough to spend the night-singing to him, pail of beer, bad night, warm fire, intoxicated, and certainly not going out again to find someone else. Perhaps she had seen him around befor, flirted with him and was thinking he may be her next boyfriend/supporter.

I think people need to seriously consider him as her killer and JtR. Here we have the local joe, unknown, never comes forward and never found, matches the profile of serial killer Everyman, similar in description to possibly the most credible witness Lawendes suspect, frequents prostitutes, pub goer and has the wherewithal to get a young attractive woman to bring him home. Oh and he's the last person seen with her alive.

[caz]

Oh I agree with you, Abby. I consider Blotchy to be a person of very great interest, who needs to be eliminated before anyone who could not reasonably have been the same man is put in the frame.

Where I would disagree is that he doesn't need to have met Kelly before that night (nor even been a 'local joe', although I concede it's as likely as not).

Prostitutes like Kelly survived on their wits and their ability to engage with complete strangers and make them feel "comfortable". Blotchy had beer - a big plus - and had most likely shown her the price of admission and fed her before she let him into her room and her bed. She owed back rent, so he probably struck her as a godsend, before he struck her as the ripper.

My hunch is that Hutch may have turned up at her door while she was entertaining Blotchy, waited for nearly an hour then gave up, without ever seeing him. When he heard that she had been murdered he realised he could have been seen by all sorts during his vigil, putting him in a dangerous position. So when the inquest was over he decided to come forward with his story of seeing Kelly and the man together (imagining what the ripper might look like) and following them back, to take the heat off what he was doing loitering near the crime scene himself.

Love,

Caz
X

[Nick Spring]

I agree Botchy man is of great interest and not necessarily local or have met here before.

But by considering him as a suspect, his description is so different from other sightings with other victims.

Best

Nick

[Fisherman]

My hunch is that Hutch may have turned up at her door while she was entertaining Blotchy, waited for nearly an hour then gave up, without ever seeing him. When he heard that she had been murdered he realised he could have been seen by all sorts during his vigil, putting him in a dangerous position. So when the inquest was over he decided to come forward with his story of seeing Kelly and the man together (imagining what the ripper might look like) and following them back, to take the heat off what he was doing loitering near the crime scene himself.
Love,

Caz
X

The events were two and a half hours apart, roughly. And Hutchinson said that he was returning from Romford at the stage when he arrived in Dorset Street.
Why would he do that, if he felt a need to explain what he was doing outside Kelly´s place at 11.45-12.30? If he had been seen then, his story about arriving back AFTER that stage would surely point away from his having been in place 11.45-12.30.

Or are you saying that he may have entertained a hope that the ones who saw him at 11.45-12.30 would have accepted that it was actually 2.00-2.45 as they observed him?

It adds up very poorly, does it not? Or am I missing something here, Caz?

The best,
Fisherman

[Abby Normal]

Oh I agree with you, Abby. I consider Blotchy to be a person of very great interest, who needs to be eliminated before anyone who could not reasonably have been the same man is put in the frame.

Where I would disagree is that he doesn't need to have met Kelly before that night (nor even been a 'local joe', although I concede it's as likely as not).

Prostitutes like Kelly survived on their wits and their ability to engage with complete strangers and make them feel "comfortable". Blotchy had beer - a big plus - and had most likely shown her the price of admission and fed her before she let him into her room and her bed. She owed back rent, so he probably struck her as a godsend, before he struck her as the ripper.

My hunch is that Hutch may have turned up at her door while she was entertaining Blotchy, waited for nearly an hour then gave up, without ever seeing him. When he heard that she had been murdered he realised he could have been seen by all sorts during his vigil, putting him in a dangerous position. So when the inquest was over he decided to come forward with his story of seeing Kelly and the man together (imagining what the ripper might look like) and following them back, to take the heat off what he was doing loitering near the crime scene himself.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz
Thanks. I agree with everything you say, especially about hutch, except about MK probably meeting blotchy for the first time that night, although its possible of course.

I'm always seeing arguments on here about whether certain women were solicitating or not. It's always too black and white for my liking. Like they only have two modes-either actively prostituting or not. Like there is no other behavior when dealing with their relationships with men. We know they had boyfriends, male friends, relationships etc., why must when we talk about what they were doing out is always that they were either solicitating or nothing.

How about perhaps, they are out looking for a new boyfriend/someone who can support them so they don't have to whore themselves all the time? I have MK and stride specifically in mind as they had both recently broken up with there men and Beleive they were first and foremost probably looking for a new man. If stride was out solicitating she probably would have ended up mutilated like the others and not just a cut throat.

Mary Kelly's behavior that night to me seems like she knew him at least casually. On the course of their outings at the pubs and the streets these women like Mary must have met, interacted with many different men and not just as customer/client. I think blotchy was probably one of these men. She certainly was acting like she knew him and was happy and content to be with him for an extended period of time. Unfortunately for Mary, he was probably the ripper IMHO.

[Abby Normal]

The events were two and a half hours apart, roughly. And Hutchinson said that he was returning from Romford at the stage when he arrived in Dorset Street.
Why would he do that, if he felt a need to explain what he was doing outside Kelly´s place at 11.45-12.30? If he had been seen then, his story about arriving back AFTER that stage would surely point away from his having been in place 11.45-12.30.

Or are you saying that he may have entertained a hope that the ones who saw him at 11.45-12.30 would have accepted that it was actually 2.00-2.45 as they observed him?

It adds up very poorly, does it not? Or am I missing something here, Caz?

The best,
Fisherman

Hi fish
I Beleive she is talking about 2:00 on time frame, not the earlier time frame when Mary was first spotted with Blotchy.

[caz]

Hi fish
I Beleive she is talking about 2:00 on time frame, not the earlier time frame when Mary was first spotted with Blotchy.

Yep, that's exactly what I meant, Abby. Thanks.

I see no reason why Blotchy could not still have been in the room when Hutch said he arrived around 2am. After all, we were talking about Blotchy in terms of being a potential ripper.

Keep up, Fishy!

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi again Abby,

I'm not particularly fussed whether Stride and/or Kelly were soliciting or not when they encountered their killer. But it was likely to have been something about where the victims were and what they were doing at the time that made them appear easy prey. So even if they had not been planning to solicit, and were hoping to find a new partner, we know that their killer (ripper or not) had a very different agenda, which required the victim to play ball to a certain extent. If Kelly's killer had shown her a decent amount of money, for instance, I'm not sure she would have refused on the basis that he was a stranger who probably just wanted sex and was never going to be her Mr. Right.

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

Yep, that's exactly what I meant, Abby. Thanks.

I see no reason why Blotchy could not still have been in the room when Hutch said he arrived around 2am. After all, we were talking about Blotchy in terms of being a potential ripper.

Keep up, Fishy!

Love,

Caz
X

I´m trying, Caz, I´m trying.

... but in this case, I find your suggestion overcomplicated, to say the least.

Let´s try and untangle things here!

You suggest that Hutch was there at the time he himself said he was, around 2.00-3.45, right?

And he did not know who was in the room with Kelly?

Then he invented Astrakhan man to explain why he was there, is that right? To take the heat off himself, as you say.

But how would that take the heat off? Why would it be less conspicious to admit to having watched her house with Astrakhan man inside than with anybody else? Or, for that matter, with nobody else in there?

Any one of these three suggestions have Hutchinson standing outside her room for 45 minutes in the middle of the night. Any of them would be an unconfirmable story, and a potential lie. The police would know this - and they realized the implications too, since Hutch was interrogated.

If he just stood there, hoping for Kelly to come out, why not just say so? It would not be possible to tie him to the murder on basis of that. She was a prostitute, and prostitutes often venture out at nighttime. The scenario would be a realistic one.

Once he involved a man with rich attire and spats, he offered himself up to suspicion. And if he had NOT seen that man, he risked getting tangled up in his own lies, and that could spell disaster. What if Blotchy came forward and said "Hey, I was there all night, and I never say any fancy dress guy".

Is overcomplicating, I´m afraid. Not impossible, but not very credible either.

The best,
Fisherman