Name who you think it was,please

[Sam Flynn]

one of us is right and one of us is wrong

You both might be (ducks for cover!)

[robhouse]

Re: the Batty street Lodger

The lodger story first appeared I think on Oct 15, but the follow up articles over the next few days make it clear that the initial story was misreported, based on gossiping neighbors basically. In any case, the reporter never apparently talked to the landlady herself. And it is clear there never was a lodger at all, but that the bloody laundry was dropped off by a stranger.

All the most relevant articles (to Kozminski) are on October 18... see the Daily News, the Echo, and the Evening News, which contains an interview with the landlady and an actual lodger at the house.

The Daily News notes: "police authorities have received information tending to show that the criminal is a foreigner, who was known as having lived within a radius of a few hundred yards from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy. The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognisance. If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom, he has been accused"

Interview with Mrs Kuer states: "She denied that the man for whom the police were searching was one of her lodgers, and asserted that he simply had his washing done at the house. He was a ladies tailor, working for a West-end house, and did not reside in the Leman-street district. "

key things here are:

1. suspect is a foreigner who lived a few hundred yards from Berner St murder site - "foreigner" is almost certainly a euphemism for "Jew". Kozminski probably lived at 74 Greenfield St, which is almost exactly 300 yards from the Berner St murder site. (you can measure this on Google maps)

2. suspect was accused by a woman he lived with - this may refer to Earl of Crawford letter

3. the man who dropped off the bloody shirts was a ladies' tailor - both Kozminski's brothers were ladies' tailors. Isaac possibly (probably) worked for a West End House, as a subcontractor.

Also from the interview with Mrs. Kuer:

"She explained the presence of blood on the shirt by saying that it was owing to an accident that occurred to a man (other than the one taken into custody) who was living on the premises, and that the police would have known nothing of it but for her having indiscreetly shown it to a neighbour. "

So here we see, the man who was taken into custody is not the owner of the shirt. The blood is explained as coming from an accident. The owner of the bloody shirt was "living on the premises". It is not explicitly stated what premises are meant, but it is not Mrs Kuer's house. The implication is, the premises refers to the ladies' tailor's premises. This supports the idea of Aaron living at Isaac's house, or more specifically his workshop, at 74 Greenfield St.

Other references to "living on premises" or in shops.

Cox (City CID) refers to a suspect who was "about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."

The City CID was conducting surveillance on this suspect who lived on a Jewish street, in a workshop (later described as a "house"), and the police used the cover story that they were "factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers who employed boys and girls under age, and pointing out the evils accruing from the sweaters' system." Isaac was a master tailor, specifically described as a sweater in the Booth surveys. Cox's story also incidentally corroborates Swanson who said Kozminski was watched by City CID: "On suspect’s return to his brother’s house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. "

Also Sims refers to a suspect who is "a Polish Jew of curious habits and strange disposition, who was the sole occupant of certain premises in Whitechapel after night-fall." Note the phrase "sole occupant of certain premises"...

Rob H

[Jeff Leahy]

PS have you ever seen someone after a serious diet?

Someone who loses 5 stone looks very differant

Pirate

[Sam Flynn]

PS have you ever seen someone after a serious diet?

Indeed, Jeff, but a man weighing only 7½ stone sounds like somebody who was naturally small-framed to start with - diet or not - and his shoulders are unlikely to have shrunk, even if his belly had.

[joelhall]

well i have 3 reasons for doubt...

first, he refused to accept food from people, & ate what he found, so were told. we at least know he was poor, so couldnt afford much, and a hebrew hairdresser isnt the heaviest of work. i doubt hed have been particularly big built. given the later description of small & slight in stature, it would follow that his frame was small too, so broad shoulders, or 5'11 of the suspects wouldnt fit.

secondly, i find it doubtful an eastern european jew around this period would have such light hair, with a simple mustache. given his trade, i would imagine hed be very stereotypical in appearance.

lastly the ages given by witnesses are all out given what we know of kosminskis d.o.b. with the exception of packers lower estimate, schwartz & lawende giving an age around 6/7 years senior.

[Jeff Leahy]

[/QUOTE]well i have 3 reasons for doubt...

first, he refused to accept food from people, & ate what he found, so were told. we at least know he was poor, so couldnt afford much,[/QUOTE]

Incorrect..infact kosminski's family were comparatively wealthy


[/QUOTE] and a hebrew hairdresser isnt the heaviest of work. i doubt hed have been particularly big built. given the later description of small & slight in stature, it would follow that his frame was small too, so broad shoulders, or 5'11 of the suspects wouldnt fit.[/QUOTE]

A Hairdresser or Barber was a very different person in 1888 than today.

[/QUOTE] secondly, i find it doubtful an eastern european jew around this period would have such light hair, with a simple mustache. given his trade, i would imagine hed be very stereotypical in appearance.[/QUOTE]

I nearly accused you of being anti-samitic then, so I apologuize..however your sterio type might be very wrong...kosminski came from Poland.


[/QUOTE]lastly the ages given by witnesses are all out given what we know of kosminskis d.o.b. with the exception of packers lower estimate, schwartz & lawende giving an age around 6/7 years senior.[/QUOTE]

Yes Jasper Carrot man..as opposed to Freddy Mercury man...

Six or seven years??? It was dark, the witness got a fleet look...

However it is possible that Lawende..Schwartz and Blotchy..are one of the same..anmd Aaron Kosminski..possible

Pirate

PS..thanks for clarifying that Rob..Of course you meant Crawford not Camarthon...I'm getting all Anderson

[jmenges]

secondly, i find it doubtful an eastern european jew around this period would have such light hair, with a simple mustache. given his trade, i would imagine hed be very stereotypical in appearance.

I was going to ask you to elaborate on this as well. Not that I took your remark as anti-semitic, but rather that what one would think of traditional facial hair for Jews had by this time gone by the wayside. I would dare say that it was more of the fashion at this time for Jews (especially mid-aged to younger Jews) to not be sporting the full beard look.

PS- as a gift to those of you reading this thread, I'll tell you that Rob House will be the guest on the next podcast.

JM

[Jeff Leahy]

I was going to ask you to elaborate on this as well. Not that I took your remark as anti-semitic, but rather that what one would think of traditional facial hair for Jews had by this time gone by the wayside. I would dare say that it was more of the fashion at this time for Jews (especially mid-aged to younger Jews) to not be sporting the full beard look.

PS- as a gift to those of you reading this thread, I'll tell you that Rob House will be the guest on the next podcast.

JM

I'm now massively hooked..will it be live..have you the Begg?

And when are you going to get web cams..

I'm very exxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxcited about this Jonathon.

Jeff

[jmenges]

It will be live for us!

As far as Begg...

You'll have to wait and listen, Jeff.



JM

[joelhall]

well i have 3 reasons for doubt...

first, he refused to accept food from people, & ate what he found, so were told. we at least know he was poor, so couldnt afford much,[/QUOTE]

Incorrect..infact kosminski's family were comparatively wealthy


[/QUOTE] and a hebrew hairdresser isnt the heaviest of work. i doubt hed have been particularly big built. given the later description of small & slight in stature, it would follow that his frame was small too, so broad shoulders, or 5'11 of the suspects wouldnt fit.[/QUOTE]

A Hairdresser or Barber was a very different person in 1888 than today.

[/QUOTE] secondly, i find it doubtful an eastern european jew around this period would have such light hair, with a simple mustache. given his trade, i would imagine hed be very stereotypical in appearance.[/QUOTE]

I nearly accused you of being anti-samitic then, so I apologuize..however your sterio type might be very wrong...kosminski came from Poland.


[/QUOTE]lastly the ages given by witnesses are all out given what we know of kosminskis d.o.b. with the exception of packers lower estimate, schwartz & lawende giving an age around 6/7 years senior.[/QUOTE]

Yes Jasper Carrot man..as opposed to Freddy Mercury man...

Six or seven years??? It was dark, the witness got a fleet look...

However it is possible that Lawende..Schwartz and Blotchy..are one of the same..anmd Aaron Kosminski..possible

Pirate

PS..thanks for clarifying that Rob..Of course you meant Crawford not Camarthon...I'm getting all Anderson [/QUOTE]

well in response....

a hebrew hairdresser was different to the barbers of england.

poland is in eastern europe, and jews from this region at this time looked quite distinctive. given his trade dealth with this traditional look, i dont think its unreasonable to suggest he would have had the same appearance.

(though being of yiddish ancestors myself i wouldnt like to appear anti-semitic )

lastly, all of the witness statements put the age as higher than kosminskis. this isnt just on the double event night, but is consistent throughout the series.

lastly, i doubt the police could interview two men & not realise they are both the man theyve id'd... could be difficult when he goes to the coast to id himself

i did read that right didnt i?

joel

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Joel

Firstly lets knock the anti semitic stuff on the head. Your points are perfectly valid. And I think your reputation on casebook speaks for itself...I never intended to play such a card..moving on...

Re; Hairdresser..all you have is an entry in a book..Hairdresser could have meant almost anything...felcher perhaps..we don't know..Kosminski's family were respectable tailors and comparitively wealthy.

Re: Polish jews..the idea that Kosminski looked like a traditional orthodox appearance has nothing to back it up...its quite possible he had a brown mostache..

Re Witness statements..are notoriously bad..per se..with regard to age...of all things, people get this wrong.

A man made a pass at my daughter in a chineese resteraunt a couple of weeks ago, he had my partner and daughter in there mid twenties..my partner is 36 and my daughter 14!

Age is very difficult to get right.

Pirate

[joelhall]

Hi Joel

Firstly lets knock the anti semitic stuff on the head. Your points are perfectly valid. And I think your reputation on casebook speaks for itself...I never intended to play such a card..moving on...

you dont have to defend yourself about it i really dont care for any type of race arguements or pc nonsense so no offence was taken. as for my reputation.... yeah, lets not go there haha.

Re; Hairdresser..all you have is an entry in a book..Hairdresser could have meant almost anything...felcher perhaps..we don't know..Kosminski's family were respectable tailors and comparitively wealthy.

hebrew hairdresser. a specific & traditional trade amongst jews.

Re: Polish jews..the idea that Kosminski looked like a traditional orthodox appearance has nothing to back it up...its quite possible he had a brown mostache..

true as we dont know what he looked like. but the odds are for it. especially given his trade. lets not forget that there wasnt as much intermarrying then, so its doubtful hed have any western appearance. it would be highly unlikely he wouldnt appear jewish.

Re Witness statements..are notoriously bad..per se..with regard to age...of all things, people get this wrong.

perhaps, though when the common factor puts his age consistently higher, it does start to tell you something

A man made a pass at my daughter in a chineese resteraunt a couple of weeks ago, he had my partner and daughter in there mid twenties..my partner is 36 and my daughter 14!

Age is very difficult to get right.

Pirate

dont even get me started on estimating ladies ages these days

even so, this doesnt address the subject of his physical stature. nor of one other telling point.... the time between the murders stopping, and his being placed in psychiatric care. why did the killings stop?

im sure youll support this theory no matter what the arguments & probability against it. admirable of course, but i just cant be persuaded by the kosminski theory myself.

[jmenges]

lets not forget that there wasnt as much intermarrying then, so its doubtful hed have any western appearance. it would be highly unlikely he wouldnt appear jewish.

Intermarrying with westerners has nothing to do with the fact that by the mid to late 19th century many jews were abandoning the wearing of an orthodox full beard. Most Jewish men shaved. It is a documented fact. The Hebrew churches all over Europe had by this time loosened their rules regarding facial hair. He was a Hebrew hairdresser. That is his religion and occupation. I bet he shaved the faces of quite a number of his fellow Jews.

JM

[joelhall]

by the way, dont get me wrong - there are very good grounds for suspecting kosminski. hes one of the more valid suspects, and in all probability it could be him.

i just find, just as with science, the best way to prove a theory is to try as hard as possible to disprove it. if it stands up to scrutiny, then its probable. but if you try to look for supporting proof you often end up missing the whole picture.

[joelhall]

Intermarrying with westerners has nothing to do with the fact that by the mid to late 19th century many jews were abandoning the wearing of an orthodox full beard. Most Jewish men shaved. It is a documented fact. The Hebrew churches all over Europe had by this time loosened their rules regarding facial hair. He was a Hebrew hairdresser. That is his religion and occupation. I bet he shaved the faces of quite a number of his fellow Jews.

JM

no....

but it does affect the colour of their hair.