Name who you think it was,please

[jmenges]

no....

but it does affect the colour of their hair.

We disagree?

By the 1880's, beards could be cut very very short and still not be considered by their community a break with the faith. The ban on shaving or cutting the beard short had been lifted by this time.

Here is where we'd probably agree:

The Jewish faith still considered growing a beard as a sign of no longer being a child.

Kosminski (in his crazier moments) supposedly had an aversion to bathing, which might have affected his shaving habits.

JM

[Roy Corduroy]

Can I ask members to name who they think JTR was and why in just a few sentences

Joseph Lis alias Joe Silver

I suspect The Fox , the impulsive psychopath who stalked East London in 1888. 20 years old, sphllitic, 5ft, 7in, young, strong, quick and disturbed. He left London, but returned to destroy women's lives again. The Berner St. tragedy was near the Lis family business on Plumber’s Row.

Roy

[Limehouse]

Joseph Lis alias Joe Silver

I suspect The Fox , the impulsive psychopath who stalked East London in 1888. 20 years old, sphllitic, 5ft, 7in, young, strong, quick and disturbed. He left London, but returned to destroy women's lives again. The Berner St. tragedy was near the Lis family business on Plumber’s Row.

Roy

Very interesting Roy. I'd like to hear more on this chap.

[Sam Flynn]

Very interesting Roy. I'd like to hear more on this chap.

You can read all about him in Charles van Onselen's The Fox and the Flies, which is available here. Lis was an intriguing character, and this is an interesting and well-written book - even if the effort to suggest Lis was JTR is its weakest feature.

[Mike Covell]

I agree with Sam, The book was an interesting read, well written and well referenced, but the Whitechapel section seem's to have been tacked on at the end!

[Observer]

Hi Gentlemen

I read the above book, and Lis's early life (if profiling has any worth)would make him an ideal candidate for a serial killer.

This man was the lowest of the low, he and his accomplices courted innocent young Jewish girls, and then drugged and raped them, and when they realised they were defiled, were too ashamed to bring charges. They were then co-erced into prostitution.

Certainly fits a serial killers mindset



all the best

Observer

[joelhall]

im not so sure. sounds like a weak person who gets off over controlling girls rather than a vicious killer

joel

[Observer]

Hi Joel

But a cold cold fish, with a total disreguard, indeed a contempt for woman. Believe me he had many other evil traits. Try and obtain the book, it's an interesting read as ther other gentlemen have revealed

all the best

Observer

[joelhall]

will do. though date rapists and pimps seem altogether a different breed of sicko.

[Limehouse]

I'll certainly be giving this book some attention. Thanks chaps.

[Stephen Thomas]

It was.....Arguuuuuuuuuh!

[Sam Flynn]

It was.....Arguuuuuuuuuh!

Now we'll never know.

[Celesta]

Hi Sam,

Your book recommendations have always been good ones. Just as you predicted, the Tully book has become one of my favorites. I've been curious about The Fox and The Flies for some time. Now, I will definitely check it out, as soon as I can get a decently priced copy. (cheep cheep!)

Best,

Cel O'Phane

[Jeff Leahy]

you dont have to defend yourself about it i really dont care for any type of race arguements or pc nonsense so no offence was taken. as for my reputation.... yeah, lets not go there haha.



hebrew hairdresser. a specific & traditional trade amongst jews.



true as we dont know what he looked like. but the odds are for it. especially given his trade. lets not forget that there wasnt as much intermarrying then, so its doubtful hed have any western appearance. it would be highly unlikely he wouldnt appear jewish.



perhaps, though when the common factor puts his age consistently higher, it does start to tell you something



dont even get me started on estimating ladies ages these days

even so, this doesnt address the subject of his physical stature. nor of one other telling point.... the time between the murders stopping, and his being placed in psychiatric care. why did the killings stop?

im sure youll support this theory no matter what the arguments & probability against it. admirable of course, but i just cant be persuaded by the kosminski theory myself.

Hi Joel

I hope you dont think i'm being rude..but do you have any objection to picking up this debate after the pod cast?

Its going to raise lots of questions?

Perhaps we could convein with Monty playing refer'ree in a live chat room.

I'm not fixed minded at all, and genuinely interested in all opinions

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

Re: the Batty street Lodger

The lodger story first appeared I think on Oct 15, but the follow up articles over the next few days make it clear that the initial story was misreported, based on gossiping neighbors basically. In any case, the reporter never apparently talked to the landlady herself. And it is clear there never was a lodger at all, but that the bloody laundry was dropped off by a stranger.

All the most relevant articles (to Kozminski) are on October 18... see the Daily News, the Echo, and the Evening News, which contains an interview with the landlady and an actual lodger at the house.

The Daily News notes: "police authorities have received information tending to show that the criminal is a foreigner, who was known as having lived within a radius of a few hundred yards from the scene of the Berner-street tragedy. The very place where he lodges is asserted to be within official cognisance. If the man be the real culprit, he lived some time ago with a woman, by whom, he has been accused"

Interview with Mrs Kuer states: "She denied that the man for whom the police were searching was one of her lodgers, and asserted that he simply had his washing done at the house. He was a ladies tailor, working for a West-end house, and did not reside in the Leman-street district. "

key things here are:

1. suspect is a foreigner who lived a few hundred yards from Berner St murder site - "foreigner" is almost certainly a euphemism for "Jew". Kozminski probably lived at 74 Greenfield St, which is almost exactly 300 yards from the Berner St murder site. (you can measure this on Google maps)

2. suspect was accused by a woman he lived with - this may refer to Earl of Crawford letter

3. the man who dropped off the bloody shirts was a ladies' tailor - both Kozminski's brothers were ladies' tailors. Isaac possibly (probably) worked for a West End House, as a subcontractor.

Also from the interview with Mrs. Kuer:

"She explained the presence of blood on the shirt by saying that it was owing to an accident that occurred to a man (other than the one taken into custody) who was living on the premises, and that the police would have known nothing of it but for her having indiscreetly shown it to a neighbour. "

So here we see, the man who was taken into custody is not the owner of the shirt. The blood is explained as coming from an accident. The owner of the bloody shirt was "living on the premises". It is not explicitly stated what premises are meant, but it is not Mrs Kuer's house. The implication is, the premises refers to the ladies' tailor's premises. This supports the idea of Aaron living at Isaac's house, or more specifically his workshop, at 74 Greenfield St.

Other references to "living on premises" or in shops.

Cox (City CID) refers to a suspect who was "about five feet six inches in height, with short, black, curly hair, and he had a habit of taking late walks abroad. He occupied several shops in the East End, but from time to time he became insane, and was forced to spend a portion of his time in an asylum in Surrey."

The City CID was conducting surveillance on this suspect who lived on a Jewish street, in a workshop (later described as a "house"), and the police used the cover story that they were "factory inspectors looking for tailors and capmakers who employed boys and girls under age, and pointing out the evils accruing from the sweaters' system." Isaac was a master tailor, specifically described as a sweater in the Booth surveys. Cox's story also incidentally corroborates Swanson who said Kozminski was watched by City CID: "On suspect’s return to his brother’s house in Whitechapel he was watched by police (City CID) by day & night. "

Also Sims refers to a suspect who is "a Polish Jew of curious habits and strange disposition, who was the sole occupant of certain premises in Whitechapel after night-fall." Note the phrase "sole occupant of certain premises"...

Rob H

and please do all read this post and read it again

ta Pirate