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  • #76
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    Was a rope involved?
    Originally posted by Rainbow View Post
    Simple and clear!

    Those who don't accept this, they just DON'T want to, because they have a specific suspect in their minds..

    Thank you.


    Rainbow°
    But there's evidence that a ligature was involved in several of the C5. Also where's the evidence of the Lechmere sightings on the night of the double event or were you talking bullshit?

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
      Why did bury, if his wife is already dead by strangulation, feel the need to cut her abdomen to the point where her guts are hanging out?
      I suggest because he was the Ripper. What other more simple and plausible reason is there?

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      • #78
        Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
        But there's evidence that a ligature was involved in several of the C5.
        Not so, John. Sorry, but there it is.
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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        • #79
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          Why did bury, if his wife is already dead by strangulation, feel the need to cut her abdomen to the point where her guts are hanging out?
          He didn't. He made an incision, a few inches long, from which part of her bowel protruded - that's hardly "her guts hanging out". For proper guts-hanging-out stuff, see Nichols et al.

          Also, Bury stuffed her into a box. Extra "protruding power" if ever there was.
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

          Comment


          • #80
            In fairness, Sam, the wounds to Polly's stomach weren't discovered until she was at the mortuary, so the protrusion of her entrails might possibly have been exacerbated by the ambulance journey. That said, and though exact details of her injuries are hard to discern, Dr Llewellyn describes the "fearful abdominal wounds" inflicted on Nichols as "extraordinary for their length and the severity with which they have been inflicted."

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              He didn't. He made an incision, a few inches long, from which part of her bowel protruded - that's hardly "her guts hanging out". For proper guts-hanging-out stuff, see Nichols et al.

              Also, Bury stuffed her into a box. Extra "protruding power" if ever there was.
              "A foot of intestines protruded"? Yeah guts hanging out is pretty accurate.

              And by the way, I'm getting a little tiRed of the silly semantics. As well as your constant denying the medical evidence of the severity of her wound while at the same time ad nauseam braying on about some nonsense of "protruding power".
              LOL.

              If you can't see the similarities to the ripper murders, I can't help you. But I'll try one more time. Post mortem mutilation via a cut to the abdomen by knife.

              By the way, I see you have no problem nitpicking other people's suspects, but won't say who you favor. so either stay on topic, and say who your favorite suspect is or bolt.
              Last edited by Abby Normal; 03-05-2017, 05:40 PM.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                The Whitehall torso didn't have the uterus "removed", as far as can be known.... except in the sense that everything below the waist was removed. An arm and a lower leg were recovered separately, but the pelvis was never found, so whether or not the uterus was still inside it can only be speculated at.
                When it comes to the torsos I almost completely default to Deb on the matter. She is probably the most knowledgeable person alive on them. Unless her opinion has changed she viewed the Whitehall torso as one of the, if not the least likely of all the torsos, to be murdered by JTR.

                Elizabeth Jackson, however, it could be argued she has more similarities to the other canonicals than Mary Kelly does. Whenever I try to build a case around which victims where killed by the same hand she's always the hardest on the non C5 for me to argue wasn't killed by JtR. To the point that I believe odds are better that she was killed by JTR then odds she was a random murder.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                  The Whitehall torso didn't have the uterus "removed", as far as can be known.... except in the sense that everything below the waist was removed. An arm and a lower leg were recovered separately, but the pelvis was never found, so whether or not the uterus was still inside it can only be speculated at.
                  Also Dr Hebbert estimated that she'd been killed 2 months prior to discovery, i.e. the beginning of August 1888, so not the same week as Annie Chapman.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Hi all

                    several point I would like to address here.

                    The comparison of the abdomen cuts is misleading in my view, in the Bury case it is only a few inches we are told; in the case of Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly it is completely opened, in the case of Nichols, we are told the main cut is very long, and indeed possible that there were two deep long wounds, depending on how one reads the evidence. This is not really comparable to the Bury case in my opinion, but its only my opinion.


                    Strangulation, yes there are indications of this in several of the C5, but not by use of a ligature as far as I can tell; However in the Stride case it is probably that her scarf was used to pull her head back, but that is not a ligature.

                    All this talk about the common dominating factor, the strangulation, abdominal mutilations, etc misses the most glaringly obvious does it not? All the C5 suffered cuts to the neck, has did some of the non C5 such as Mackenzie. Even in the Stride case if we accept her as a victim of JtR, this was what he did, he cut throats.


                    Whitehall torso, there is plenty of debate as to when this first appeared in the vault, however it was certainly decomposed and in all probability had been dead for some considerable time before Chapman.


                    Steve

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by John G View Post
                      Also Dr Hebbert estimated that she'd been killed 2 months prior to discovery, i.e. the beginning of August 1888, so not the same week as Annie Chapman.
                      Hi John,

                      Dr. Hebbert actually thought death occurred the middle of August, not the beginning. Dr. Bond estimated death took place the end of August or first part of September. These claims were made after the leg and foot were found toward the middle/end of October. Dr Bond examined the foot and leg on October 17th. Dr. Neville examined the first part of the body to show up, the arm. His statements put death closer to the 8th of September.

                      I would say, personally, the early part of September is not out of the question, based on all the evidence from all the doctors.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                        Hi John,

                        Dr. Hebbert actually thought death occurred the middle of August, not the beginning. Dr. Bond estimated death took place the end of August or first part of September. These claims were made after the leg and foot were found toward the middle/end of October. Dr Bond examined the foot and leg on October 17th. Dr. Neville examined the first part of the body to show up, the arm. His statements put death closer to the 8th of September.

                        I would say, personally, the early part of September is not out of the question, based on all the evidence from all the doctors.
                        Hi Jerry,

                        For once i will disagree with you a tad, looking at the various descriptions death in late August looks more likely than 2nd week of September to me.

                        I am happy with say last week August,into the first couple of days September, but end of the day who knows.



                        Steve

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Elamarna View Post
                          Hi Jerry,

                          For once i will disagree with you a tad, looking at the various descriptions death in late August looks more likely than 2nd week of September to me.

                          I am happy with say last week August,into the first couple of days September, but end of the day who knows.



                          Steve
                          Hi Steve,

                          I am fine with a little disagreement. Let me ask you a question.

                          The arm was found almost a month before the discovery of the torso and the leg and foot even a few weeks after the torso. Would you agree or disagree that the arm would have been easier to place a TOD than that of the other two discoveries due to the longer length of time they had to decompose? Also keep in mind, Dr Bond and Hebbert looked at the arm a few days after Dr. Neville examined it.
                          Last edited by jerryd; 03-06-2017, 09:06 AM. Reason: changed timing on leg and foot

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                            Hi Steve,

                            I am fine with a little disagreement. Let me ask you a question.

                            The arm was found almost a month before the discovery of the torso and the leg and foot two months after the arm discovery. Would you agree or disagree that the arm would have been easier to place a TOD than that of the other two discoveries due to the longer length of time they had to decompose? Also keep in mind, Dr Bond and Hebbert looked at the arm a few days after Dr. Neville examined it.
                            Hi Jerry,
                            Only a month between the finds (well, a month and a day);
                            Arm 16th Sep
                            Torso 2nd Oct
                            Leg 17th Oct

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
                              Hi Jerry,
                              Only a month between the finds (well, a month and a day);
                              Arm 16th Sep
                              Torso 2nd Oct
                              Leg 17th Oct
                              Yes, I caught that, thanks, Joshua. Changed it in my post.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                Why did bury, if his wife is already dead by strangulation, feel the need to cut her abdomen to the point where her guts are hanging out?
                                It's been suggested that Bury tried to make it look like a Ripper murder because he was panicking or drunk, but he didn't have the stomach for it so he just stuffed her into a box until he could think of something else.

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