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  • #46
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    Ellen Bury's mutilations were the same in nature to Nichols', with several oblique incisions
    Comparatively short in length, and somewhat more superficial.
    and one major wound to the abdominal area which exposed the intestines
    She'd been squashed into a box, so no wonder the intestine bulged out; besides, this particular wound seems to have been somewhat less extensive than any sustained by Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly.
    The only discrepancy is that Ellen Bury didn't have her throat sliced, but 1. the suicide defense wouldn't stick if Bury slit her throat, 2. serial killers change their MO, and 3. he arguably didn't need to.
    There is more than one discrepancy, for example:

    Bury's was not the murder of a stranger, indeed he had a history of exploiting and being violent to his wife - her death bears all the hallmarks of a long-running domestic dispute culminating in drink-fuelled tragedy;

    The murder happened indoors;

    In the one Ripper murder that did happen indoors the killer really went to town - Ellen B got off lightly even compared to the outdoor Ripper murder victims;

    Use of a rope was not a feature of the Ripper murders;

    Strangulation may not have been part of the Ripper's MO in any case: it's by no means certain that Nichols, Eddowes or Kelly were, and even Chapman's throttling might have been a contingency measure (her cry of "No!" within earshot of Cadoche could have driven an improvising Ripper to shut her up).

    I suppose I could add others, but I think the above are among the most significant discrepancies.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 03-04-2017, 09:00 AM.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      What's most telling is that Bury inflicted the mutilations shortly after his wife's murder. Even if the murder wasn't premeditated, his instinct was to start cutting up the abdomen.

      The only "Ripper-esque" murder that occurred in Whitechapel after Bury left the East End was Alice McKenzie, whose injuries were more superficial than Ellen's. Had Ellen Bury been found on the streets of Whitechapel instead of a basement flat in Dundee, I have little doubt that many would include her in the canon.
      Yes. Did you see my previous post? I said if he hadn't moved and killed her in London, he might of hanged as the ripper.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Comparatively short in length, and somewhat more superficial.
        What was the length of Nichols' main incision?

        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        She'd been squashed into a box, so no wonder the intestine bulged out;
        After having her abdomen sliced open.

        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        besides, this particular wound seems to have been somewhat less extensive than any sustained by Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly.
        As were Alice McKenzie's injuries. This is not decisive.

        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Bury's was not the murder of a stranger, indeed he had a history of exploiting and being violent to his wife - her death bears all the hallmarks of a long-running domestic dispute culminating in drink-fuelled tragedy;
        Are serial killer and wife killer mutually exclusive? Are there not serial killers who murdered their spouses?

        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        In the one Ripper murder that did happen indoors the killer really went to town - Ellen B got off lightly even compared to the outdoor Ripper murder victims;
        Your assumption is that the killer would've replicated Miller's Court if he killed indoors again, but that's only your opinion and it doesn't take into account the killer's mindset. It has been suggested that, like many serial killers, Bury was unravelling, as evidenced by his suicidal trip to the cop shop.

        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Use of a rope was not a feature of the Ripper murders;
        Didn't Dr Brownfield opine that a ligature might have been used and the evidence was eliminated by the throat slashings?

        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Strangulation may not have been part of the Ripper's MO in any case: it's by no means certain that Nichols, Eddowes or Kelly were, and even Chapman's throttling might have been a contingency measure (her cry of "No!" within earshot of Cadoche could have driven an improvising Ripper to shut her up).
        Yes, it's inconclusive how exactly the killer was able to subdue his victims before he slashed their throats but none of this discredits Bury as a suspect.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
          Yes. Did you see my previous post? I said if he hadn't moved and killed her in London, he might of hanged as the ripper.
          Sure did, Abby. Just expanding on it.

          Comment


          • #50
            Hi Abby.
            With reference to my earlier post.
            I have never been able to forget the letter sent to the Norfolk police addressed 14, Dorset street, the man that Mrs Lewis saw was standing outside that establishment .
            If Hutchinson's account is true, then it is not impossible that there were two men waiting in Dorset street, one went back inside the lodging house , when he saw Kelly being escorted to her room, and Hutchinson when he reached the area .
            The unknown man had intended to wait until Kelly returned, so that he could proposition her to gain access to her room, but Kelly's prosperous client ruined the plan..
            So in the morning he saw Mary outside Ringers , and tried again.and this time was successful.
            Who was this man?
            If its true, that McCarthy sent a man packing from Millers court, who was after something Kelly was alleged to have in her possession , it is entirely possible that he took lodgings where he could observe Mary Kelly..what better then directly opposite the court.
            Regards Richard.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Harry D View Post
              What was the length of Nichols' main incision?
              Depends which one of her wounds you classify as the "main" one, Harry. Polly Nichols suffered more devastating wounds to her throat than the worst one Ellen Bury sustained to her abdomen.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                She'd been squashed into a box, so no wonder the intestine bulged out
                After having her abdomen sliced open.
                Her abdomen was not "sliced open" - unlike Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly, whose abdomens certainly were. The fact is that one of WH Bury's abdominal cuts, of only a few inches in length, evidently penetrated sufficiently to allow his wife's bowel to protrude from the wound, but that seems to be it. And, like I said, being squashed into a box might have helped with the protruding process. No such artificial leverage would have been required in the case of any of the Ripper's canonical mutilation victims, that's for sure.
                Last edited by Sam Flynn; 03-04-2017, 02:15 PM.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  Hi Sam
                  If you look at the differences between Ellen and the rest of the c5 I think one could argue that there are more major similarities then minor differences.
                  I mean Nichols doesn't have organs removed and stride just cut throat. And I think any differences could be chalked up to the fact that she's his wife, he killed her in their home and deteriorating mentally etc.

                  I think if they hadn't moved and he had killed her in London, I think there's a good chance he might have hung as the ripper.
                  Absolutely Abby. We also need to bare in mind the chalk messages and that Bury may have confessed to being The Ripper when he first went to the police in Dundee and also to James Berry just before he was hung. People the police included often too easily overlook the obvious suspect for the most minor reasons look at The Yorkshire Ripper Sutcliffe was overlooked for a while and was able to continue killing as the great majority believed he was a Geordie.

                  Cheers John

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                    Her abdomen was not "sliced open" - unlike Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly, whose abdomens certainly were. The fact is that one of WH Bury's abdominal cuts, of only a few inches in length, evidently penetrated sufficiently to allow his wife's bowel to protrude from the wound, but that seems to be it. And, like I said, being squashed into a box might have helped with the protruding process. No such artificial leverage would have been required in the case of any of the Ripper's canonical mutilation victims, that's for sure.
                    Hi Sam
                    Who do have as favorite suspect?
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      The only two suspects that we can build a case against them in a court are:

                      Charles Allen Lechmere.

                      Chance being Jack the Ripper is 99%

                      This is the prime suspect in this whole series of murders and the one who has to clear himself first in front of a court.

                      X Kosminski.

                      Chance being Jack the Ripper is 1%

                      Only after clearning Lechmere, we can say safley he was the ripper, we have 2 sightings of him the night of the double event.


                      Rainbow°

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Rainbow View Post
                        The only two suspects that we can build a case against them in a court are:

                        Charles Allen Lechmere.

                        Chance being Jack the Ripper is 99%

                        This is the prime suspect in this whole series of murders and the one who has to clear himself first in front of a court.

                        X Kosminski.

                        Chance being Jack the Ripper is 1%

                        Only after clearning Lechmere, we can say safley he was the ripper, we have 2 sightings of him the night of the double event.


                        Rainbow°
                        You've got sightings of Cross on the night of the double event.

                        Ok where?
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Rainbow View Post
                          The only two suspects that we can build a case against them in a court are:

                          Charles Allen Lechmere.

                          Chance being Jack the Ripper is 99%

                          This is the prime suspect in this whole series of murders and the one who has to clear himself first in front of a court.

                          X Kosminski.

                          Chance being Jack the Ripper is 1%

                          Only after clearning Lechmere, we can say safley he was the ripper, we have 2 sightings of him the night of the double event.


                          Rainbow°
                          Utter bullshit. The chances of Lechmere being the Ripper are around 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000000001 per cent.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by GUT View Post
                            You've got sightings of Cross on the night of the double event.

                            Ok where?
                            Yeah Gut I'd like to know too.

                            Cheers John

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              Depends which one of her wounds you classify as the "main" one, Harry. Polly Nichols suffered more devastating wounds to her throat than the worst one Ellen Bury sustained to her abdomen.
                              I'm talking about the main 'deep wound' inflicted on Nichols.

                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              Her abdomen was not "sliced open" - unlike Chapman, Eddowes or Kelly, whose abdomens certainly were.
                              Taken from Ellen Bury's autopsy:

                              "an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen... It penetrated to the abdominal cavity and through it protruded part of the omentum and about a foot of intestine..."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                                I'm talking about the main 'deep wound' inflicted on Nichols.



                                Taken from Ellen Bury's autopsy:

                                "an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen... It penetrated to the abdominal cavity and through it protruded part of the omentum and about a foot of intestine..."
                                Yup. Death by strangulation and attack to the abdomen slicing open the stomach with a knife post mortem. Sound pretty similar to me.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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