Ripper Facts

[Fleetwood Mac]

Hi GUT

I previously posted a summary I'd found of witness statements at

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=9592&highlight=Witness

Lawrende saw Eddowes with a man (who seemed to be a client) 10 minutes before she was found dead. Major Henry Smith believed he was a credible witness. Robert Anderson said Lawende was the only man who saw the killer.

PC William Smith described a man (client ?) with Stride 10 minutes before she died.

My u der standing us these two are regarded as most credible witnesses.

Craig

I don't think Lawende was ever mentioned. Some believe it was Lawende and others Schwartz; I think there's a decent case to suggest it was neither.

PC Smith's man and Lawende's man were unlikely to have been the same person.

Lawende is certainly a credible witness as is PC Smith, I would lean slightly towards PC Smith in that he had a better look at the woman.

Either way, it's not a fact that Jack was English, around 5'7, stocky build.

[Abby Normal]

If it's an authentic sighting of the Stride killer and the time was accurate, it would mean that the same man did not kill Eddowes - he couldn't have got there within the necessary time window.

All the hue and cry heads south from Commercial Street, while the killer sits on a doorstep north of Commercial Street.

"At ABOUT half past one." and it's close enough in time as we all know time keeping was sketchy anyway back then.

[Pcdunn]

Hi Craig,

Not all serial killers are unmarried. In Britain Dr. Palmer had a wife (who was among his victims). Christie too had a wife whom he murdered. George Joseph Smith was a bigamist, but he had one "wife" or lover he kept coming home to after his "business" trips. In France, Landru had a family with children (they changed their name after his conviction). I believe Peter Kurten also had a family, but I'm not sure.

Jeff

Herb Baumeister, a successful businessman in Indiana, was married with a family. When they were away, he passed the time by picking up young men, taking them back to his place for a swim, and murdering them in the pool. He disposed of the evidence by burying it on the large estate surrounding his home.
It was a scandal when the truth was discovered.
Now his home and estate are said to be haunted by the ghosts of his victims (a common fate of "murder houses" in the United States-- say, I like "murder houses"; I hadn't ever heard it before coming to this site.)

[Pierre]

QUOTE=Pcdunn;382063]Herb Baumeister, a successful businessman in Indiana, was married with a family. When they were away, he passed the time by picking up young men, taking them back to his place for a swim, and murdering them in the pool. He disposed of the evidence by burying it on the large estate surrounding his home.
It was a scandal when the truth was discovered.

Now his home and estate are said to be haunted by the ghosts of his victims (a common fate of "murder houses" in the United States-- say, I like "murder houses"; I hadn't ever heard it before coming to this site.)

Interesting. Cultural phenomena created after murders. Like ripper walks. And myths. It was the same in ancient Greece and Rome.

Regards, Pierre

[MsWeatherwax]

Interesting to read about these serial killers who were married.

I'm not across this topic.

Is this then typical of serial murderers ? Or are they more likely to be unmarried and the above are the exception ?

Craig

I would have to say it's common, perhaps not typical. I suspect there are many more who are unmarried, but have long-term or live in partners.

Of course, we haven't even touched on the Karla Homolkas, Myra Hindley or Rose Wests of the world...women who not only knew what their husbands were up to, but actively participated in rape, sexual assault and murder. His name escapes me at present, but one of the most horrific, sexually sadistic serial killers I've ever read about used to kidnap and torture women in a trailer next to his house, and his wife joined in.

I'm sure there are others who knew/know what their husbands are, but are too terrified to do anything about it.

In other words, I personally think there's every chance he was married. At the end of the day, he had to be plausible enough to persuade women who's trade would already make them a bit cagey to go into dark alleys with him...even though they were supposedly terrified of the serial killer that was on the loose.

I think there's a good chance he was reasonably presentable, if not physically attractive, spoke nicely and had a pleasant demeanor (briefly). Or, possibly that he was known to these women and gave them no cause for concern.

[GUT]

I would have to say it's common, perhaps not typical. I suspect there are many more who are unmarried, but have long-term or live in partners.

Of course, we haven't even touched on the Karla Homolkas, Myra Hindley or Rose Wests of the world...women who not only knew what their husbands were up to, but actively participated in rape, sexual assault and murder. His name escapes me at present, but one of the most horrific, sexually sadistic serial killers I've ever read about used to kidnap and torture women in a trailer next to his house, and his wife joined in.

I'm sure there are others who knew/know what their husbands are, but are too terrified to do anything about it.

In other words, I personally think there's every chance he was married. At the end of the day, he had to be plausible enough to persuade women who's trade would already make them a bit cagey to go into dark alleys with him...even though they were supposedly terrified of the serial killer that was on the loose.

I think there's a good chance he was reasonably presentable, if not physically attractive, spoke nicely and had a pleasant demeanor (briefly). Or, possibly that he was known to these women and gave them no cause for concern.

I suspect many others fall into category of " suspicious but too intimidated to say anything or ask anything".

[Paddy]

The Star
Largest Circulation of Any Evening Paper in the Kingdom.
LONDON. MONDAY, 1 OCTOBER, 1888.

From two different sources we have the story that a man when passing through Church-lane at about half-past one, saw a man sitting on a door-step and wiping his hands. As every one is on the look out for the murderer the man looked at the stranger with a certain amount of suspicion, whereupon he tried to conceal his face. He is described as a man who wore a short jacket and a sailor's hat.

Interestingly there was a pub half way up at 21 Church Lane (now White Church Lane) called The Horse and Groom (now called The Bar Locks).
It was ran in 1891 by an Isaac Abrahams (not Kozs' brother) and he ran a charity to help young Jewish emigrants train to become Hairdressers.

Pat.....

[Craig H]

I drew on a Google Map and hope to upload it, but file was too large to attach. Can you visualise the following ?

If we assume the Church Lane sighting was of Jack (which is likely as the description was similar to Lawende and PC Smith), then it may suggest Jack was heading home. So we have an arrow from Berner St up to Church Lane. He then changed his mind and moved to Mitre Square.

Similarly, we have another arrow from Mitre Square up to Goulston Street where Jack left the apron. Again this suggests he was heading home.

Both these arrows meet around Flower & Dean Street or Thrawl Street. Does this suggest Jack lived somewhere in that broad area ?

The second question I have is did Jack live close to Miller's Court - other wise how did he walk home covered in blood from the Kelly mutilation ?

I can see how Jack minimised blood stains on the earlier killings as he strangled them first so there was no spurting blood. However, wouldn't the Kelly-murder blood stains have been obvious as he walked through the streets ?

Craig

[Elamarna]

Craig,

I think him being covered in blood depends on several things.


The only way he would not have obvious blood stains on him was:

1. He took a change of clothing, unlikely!

2. He removed all or some of this clothing for the attack. possible!

In any event an outer coat would cover much, and the hands in the pockets to hide them.

We do have the report from Mitre Square of a blood stained man just before the discovery of the body, which could be related.

Again we have a problem with the TOD in that case, it is not insurmountable but it is tight and problematic with a man walking out in broad daylight, stained with blood and only seen once.

The traditional TOD around 3-4am, makes escape in the dark far easier.


I am not convinced the apparent sighting in Church Lane is connected, the timings seem far too tight and it is away, not towards Mitre Square.

Even if it is the killer, your suggestion he is heading home is not necessary correct, especially if he is still in a highly charged state having not performed any mutilations!

I agree with the suggestion that he is heading home in Goulston street, it does make sense.

However we cannot be sure from which direction he enters Goulston street

Therefore we have 3 options here do we not?

1. He lives in Goulston Street.
2. He is heading North. towards Wentworth street.
3. He is heading South towards Whitechapel high street.

I can see arguments for all 3.

Steve

[MsWeatherwax]

I can see how Jack minimised blood stains on the earlier killings as he strangled them first so there was no spurting blood. However, wouldn't the Kelly-murder blood stains have been obvious as he walked through the streets ?

Craig

Depends what he was wearing and how many people were about when he left, I suppose Craig. I think that he was either naked or in his underclothes at the time he murdered her if I'm perfectly honest, and if that's the case he would have just put his unstained outer clothes back on and nobody would have been any the wiser. Skin may have been wiped on whatever clothing was burned in the fire place, or possibly washed at the pump in Millers Court (I'm sure there was one, but I could be wrong).

Kelly was in her chemise, and in bed so it follows to me that he would have undressed and got into bed with her. The knife could have been concealed in a sock or waistband of whatever underclothes he was wearing. I doubt that Kelly was in any state to notice it anyway. I also think people tend to overestimate how much people scream and make a fuss when confronted by someone with a weapon - it's not uncommon for people in that situation to either try to bargain with their assailant or to completely freeze up.

I have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to argue my point, but every time I look at a map of the killings my eye ends up drawn to Whitechapel High Street. I often wonder that, if he did not live there, whether he may have had a shop or workshop there that allowed him to store a clean set of clothes and gave him washing facilities.

[Elamarna]

Depends what he was wearing and how many people were about when he left, I suppose Craig. I think that he was either naked or in his underclothes at the time he murdered her if I'm perfectly honest, and if that's the case he would have just put his unstained outer clothes back on and nobody would have been any the wiser. Skin may have been wiped on whatever clothing was burned in the fire place, or possibly washed at the pump in Millers Court (I'm sure there was one, but I could be wrong).

Kelly was in her chemise, and in bed so it follows to me that he would have undressed and got into bed with her. The knife could have been concealed in a sock or waistband of whatever underclothes he was wearing. I doubt that Kelly was in any state to notice it anyway. I also think people tend to overestimate how much people scream and make a fuss when confronted by someone with a weapon - it's not uncommon for people in that situation to either try to bargain with their assailant or to completely freeze up.

I have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to argue my point, but every time I look at a map of the killings my eye ends up drawn to Whitechapel High Street. I often wonder that, if he did not live there, whether he may have had a shop or workshop there that allowed him to store a clean set of clothes and gave him washing facilities.

All certainly possible,
it would indeed fit with the reports of Cox and Sagar would it not?

Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

We do have the report from Mitre Square of a blood stained man just before the discovery of the body, which could be related.

I don't recall this sighting, do you have a source for this?

I am not convinced the apparent sighting in Church Lane is connected, the timings seem far too tight and it is away, not towards Mitre Square.

Not really away from Mitre Square....Church Lane is almost on the most direct route between the two, which would incorporate the length of Whitechapel Highstreet, if he was intent on finding a prostitute to take out his frustrations on. I'm not saying the sighting was connected, but I don't think you can rule it out for being off-course.

[Craig H]

Depends what he was wearing and how many people were about when he left, I suppose Craig. I think that he was either naked or in his underclothes at the time he murdered her if I'm perfectly honest, and if that's the case he would have just put his unstained outer clothes back on and nobody would have been any the wiser. Skin may have been wiped on whatever clothing was burned in the fire place, or possibly washed at the pump in Millers Court (I'm sure there was one, but I could be wrong).

Kelly was in her chemise, and in bed so it follows to me that he would have undressed and got into bed with her. The knife could have been concealed in a sock or waistband of whatever underclothes he was wearing. I doubt that Kelly was in any state to notice it anyway. I also think people tend to overestimate how much people scream and make a fuss when confronted by someone with a weapon - it's not uncommon for people in that situation to either try to bargain with their assailant or to completely freeze up.

I have nothing in the way of scientific evidence to argue my point, but every time I look at a map of the killings my eye ends up drawn to Whitechapel High Street. I often wonder that, if he did not live there, whether he may have had a shop or workshop there that allowed him to store a clean set of clothes and gave him washing facilities.

Hi Ms Weatherwax,
Of course - if he had removed clothes before killing Kelly then any blood stains would be covered up.
I'll have a look at Whitechapel High Street on the map.
Getting late here = will read your comments again in morning
All the best
Craig

[Elamarna]

I don't recall this sighting, do you have a source for this?



Not really away from Mitre Square....Church Lane is almost on the most direct route between the two, which would incorporate the length of Whitechapel Highstreet, if he was intent on finding a prostitute to take out his frustrations on. I'm not saying the sighting was connected, but I don't think you can rule it out for being off-course.

Joshua


i will need to go look for it, but it is reported on this forum several times.

it would be quicker to go down commercial road the whole way, turning into church lane is a detour away from MS.
yes it gave him more to chose from, but its the time involved concerns me.


Steve

[jerryd]

I don't recall this sighting, do you have a source for this?



Not really away from Mitre Square....Church Lane is almost on the most direct route between the two, which would incorporate the length of Whitechapel Highstreet, if he was intent on finding a prostitute to take out his frustrations on. I'm not saying the sighting was connected, but I don't think you can rule it out for being off-course.

Joshua,

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4921/13265.html