Ripper Facts

[Wickerman]

There was only one fully functioning lamp that could light that corner and it was how far away ? 20 feet was it ? There or there abouts .
These lamps gave no more than a puddle of light below them as I'm sure you already know and were used as direction finders or if someone wanted to see something , then stand below .

45 minutes earlier and just over half a mile away people were lighting matches to spot a body in dutfields yard. .... why would it have brightened up enough for an operation in Mitre Square .

I suspect Sequeira only meant that corner was sufficiently lighted.
Not that the abdominal cavity was sufficiently lighted (by a lamp some 65? ft across the square) to enable the killer to see what he was doing.
That, in my opinion, had to be more the result of feel than eyesight.
And that, suggests anatomical knowledge.

[Fisherman]

What makes you think that he waited for any of the victims to "bleed out"? I see nothing to suggest that he didn't just crack on with things as soon as the throat was cut.

What is - or may well be - interesting in this context is how the 1873 torso victim that I claim had the same killer as Mary Kelly was bled out thoroughly, in all probability by being hung in a position that allowed for the blood to completely exit the body.
If this was the Ripperīs work, then I can easily accept that the cutting of the Ripper victim necks involved a decision to bleed them off before setting about cutting into the bodies. I agree that there is no proof of the practice, but it remains an open possibility with something going for it.
Overall, I think that the Ripper murders are examples of the killer wanting not so much to kill as to procure a body. The killing phase seems to have been quickly enough over and done with. Reasonably, it was not what he came for. And if he came for the cutting/eviscerations/organ procuring, it must be said that it would be less messy if the blood had been seen off beforehand.

On the other site, Drew Grays upcoming book on a connection between the Ripper and the Torso killer is under discussion. A Galadriel puts it in The Lord of the Rings: The world is changing.

[Fisherman]

I seem to remember it being said that the method used by Kelly's killer to remove her heart was one not generally employed by surgeons at the time. The method had only recently been pioneered, and one of the few places it was being taught was at the medical school attended by Francis Thompson.

Apologies if that's a bit vague, but checking it out would entail entering Francis Thompson land again.😱

You are referring to the Virchow technique, Gary.

[Wickerman]

What makes you think that he waited for any of the victims to "bleed out"? I see nothing to suggest that he didn't just crack on with things as soon as the throat was cut.

My thoughts exactly.

[Wickerman]

Does it matter? the important point is that it took him 3 minutes and he damaged the bladder. The uterus was removed from Eddowes without damaging the bladder, so that may suggest that whoever removed the uterus from Eddowes had sufficient light to be able to remove it without damaging the bladder.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So the extraction from Eddowes was conducted under better lighting conditions than the controlled experiment?
Does that seem likely?

[packers stem]

Try it - or rather, try a thought experiment. Your task is to cut open the belly, pull out the intestines and remove two organs in, say, five minutes. Of course you can do it.
Being on their knees (or crouching) would only make things easier, I can't see that the rain would make much diference and, as Dr Sequeira confirmed, it was not completely dark in that corner of Mitre Square.

Here we go .... good old Dr Sequeira
The newly qualified GP that anyone trying to dismiss medical knowledge or lighting clings to .
The square was lit up like Blackpool on a late November evening by the time he turned up .
It's ridiculous to accept what he thought the square may have seemed like 15 minutes before his arrival

There was only one fully functioning lamp that could light that corner and it was how far away ? 20 feet was it ? There or there abouts .
These lamps gave no more than a puddle of light below them as I'm sure you already know and were used as direction finders or if someone wanted to see something , then stand below .

45 minutes earlier and just over half a mile away people were lighting matches to spot a body in dutfields yard. .... why would it have brightened up enough for an operation in Mitre Square .

As for whether I could find a kidney. ... nope
Finding 'something' doesn't count when you realise the membrane covering the kidney had been 'cut' to expose it

[Sam Flynn]

Makes it even more extraordinary that many people still cling to the belief that such a feat could be accomplished by someone with no skill

Try it - or rather, try a thought experiment. Your task is to cut open the belly, pull out the intestines and remove two organs in, say, five minutes. Of course you can do it.

on their knees, in the rain and complete darkness .....

Being on their knees (or crouching) would only make things easier, I can't see that the rain would make much diference and, as Dr Sequeira confirmed, it was not completely dark in that corner of Mitre Square.

[Trevor Marriott]

Was this test conducted in the dark, or a well lighted surgical room?

Does it matter? the important point is that it took him 3 minutes and he damaged the bladder. The uterus was removed from Eddowes without damaging the bladder, so that may suggest that whoever removed the uterus from Eddowes had sufficient light to be able to remove it without damaging the bladder.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sam Flynn]

It takes time to exsanguinate a body. Two minutes minimum. For two minutes he probably spent the time on her face waiting for her to bleed out.

What makes you think that he waited for any of the victims to "bleed out"? I see nothing to suggest that he didn't just crack on with things as soon as the throat was cut.

[packers stem]

Was this test conducted in the dark, or a well lighted surgical room?

Under normal laboratory conditions I would think Jon .
Can't imagine he was blindfolded for the test.
Makes it even more extraordinary that many people still cling to the belief that such a feat could be accomplished by someone with no skill , on their knees , in the rain and complete darkness .....

[packers stem]

It takes time to exsanguinate a body. Two minutes minimum. For two minutes he probably spent the time on her face waiting for her to bleed out.

and where do you think the blood went ?

[Sam Flynn]

I seem to remember it being said that the method used by Kelly's killer to remove her heart was one not generally employed by surgeons at the time.

I'm not surprised, Gary. I'd bet that anyone who shoved his hands between the lungs to yank down and cut out the heart wouldn't remain a surgeon for very long

[Wickerman]

Clearly Dr Brown had concerns that's why he asked his expert to carry out a test, and it took him 3 minutes just to remove the uterus, and with that he also managed to damage the bladder, something which was not seen in the post mortem of Eddowes. Add onto that the time to remove a kidney which is even more difficult to remove and to carry out all the rest and that would take more than 5 minutes.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Was this test conducted in the dark, or a well lighted surgical room?

[Batman]

I am now wondering if the murderer did have some sort of medical and or anatomical knowledge ie knew the basics and used the ripping technique to make out he didn't know what he was doing, to throw everyone off.

The only way to comprehend what the Ripper did is to get a shop mannequin and try it out. Plastic may not get a good result- do they make latex ones?

A mannequin or latex one is no comparison to a human body. The closest you can get to not using a cadaver is a forensic ballistic dummy and even that isn't really what pathologists would do. They would use a body donated to medical science, but they don't even have to really do that. All they have to do is go into the professional literature on the matter today. Back in 1888 experiments would have been done on cadavers I would hope.

It takes time to exsanguinate a body. Two minutes minimum. For two minutes he probably spent the time on her face waiting for her to bleed out.

[MrBarnett]

There is. An editor of a ripper magazine is a surgeon and he appeared in a documentary. He says there are two things that could suggest medical knowledge. The first is that Eddowes kidney was severed at the renal artery and the second is that Mary Kelly's heart was detached by severing through the upper ribs and then pulled out from under her ribcage. He would expect someone without medical knowledge to try and do it all from under the ribs and not through them.

Critics say the kidneys were also sliced in unusual places and other organs also and with Kelly, he was experimenting.

I seem to remember it being said that the method used by Kelly's killer to remove her heart was one not generally employed by surgeons at the time. The method had only recently been pioneered, and one of the few places it was being taught was at the medical school attended by Francis Thompson.

Apologies if that's a bit vague, but checking it out would entail entering Francis Thompson land again.😱