Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[Rubyretro]

if we forget his bioraphical details, he could be a serial killer as well as many other unknown locals could be

No more so, and no less so, taking that statement as bald fact.

However, if we do look at his biographical details, then we can't ascertain that this Fleming was Mary's 'Joe', and we can certainly say that, if he was, he couldn't have successfully passed himself off as the Hutchinson who went to the Police.

[DVV]

No more so, and no less so

My point exactly. In reply to the assertion that he could have been, at "best", MJK's murderer, but certainly not a serial killer.

However, if we do look at his biographical details, then we can't ascertain that this Fleming was Mary's 'Joe'

I think we reasonably can. And that's why it has been generally accepted, even by people who do not believe he was a killer, nor passed himself as Hutch.

In any case, Fleming's identity and biography is much more documented than Hutch's.
Indeed, if Hutch's identitiy was as well ascertained than that of Fleming, I would dismiss my theory (as Sam Flynn did after the Toppy signature episode) as unviable.
But Hutch is as elusive as ever, for those who have rejected the Toppy solution.

and we can certainly say that, if he was, he couldn't have successfully passed himself off as the Hutchinson who went to the Police.

I'm curious to hear why we "can certainly say that", Ruby.

And have to maintain that Fleming had much more to worry than Hutch after the inquest : he was Wideawake Hat just like Hutch, and in addition, he knew his name had been noted by the police as the victim's violent ex-boyfriend and regular visitor.

Deux raisons valent mieux qu'une, n'est-ce pas ma chère ?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
Although its very tempting to speculate all sorts of theories involving Fleming and Hutch, we simply have no ''concrete'' evidence[ sorry about the pun.] that the plasterer Fleming was the actual Joe, that was Kelly's ex boyfriend.
We can surely safely believe that the 6'7'' James Evans was not Mary'S ex beau, for obvious reasons, and we have no reason to doubt the records stating his height, it is there in black and white.
The name Joseph was extremely common, and Fleming is hardly unique, and plasterers were plentiful , especially as he was described as a plasterers labourer.
The suggestion that Fleming was Hutchinson is not a logical suggestion, unless proven otherwise, the latter was Topping, and I could not be more confident with that.
He is the only man that has ever been identified [ by a member of his family] to have been the witness, and I can no suspicious circumstances in that .
Casebook puts forward the publication 'The Ripper and the Royals' as casting doubt on Topping's son Reg's claims, however I heard the same account at least 18 years earlier[ as is well documented] so I have different views.
We have no idea who the other 'Joe' in Kelly's life was, he was described as a Costermonger , indeed he may have been the very man that Mrs Maxwell claims to have seen with Mary at 845am on the morning of the 9th ie dressed as a market porter.
A costermonger is a seller of fruit/vegetables from a barrow, not a plasterer, of course it is possible that this was a reference to Joe Barnett.
A good deal of this case can be concluded in many ways, but despite the confusion we have to assume that two men of the same name ie Joe were in Kelly's life.
It could be suggested, that although the ill-user of Mary was in fact Barnett,it was the other Joe she could not stand, and the whole scene got confused by court residents.
There is much more to unravel, without making Hutchinson a man of many faces involved in all sorts of goings ons.
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

That's the question

Hi Claire

what would Fleming have to gain by pretending to be a man called George Hutchinson (with all the attendant fabulous stories)?

I believe Joe Fleming had two problems after the inquest.

1) Sarah Lewis

2) That the police could well look for him now that they knew his name, at best as an important witness/MK acquaintance, at worst as a possible suspect (the jealous and violent ex-boyfriend).

Understandably, if traced and apprehended, he would have been asked first : Why didn't you come forward (as a good citizen is supposed to do) ?

Having created Hutch, he could reply, if caught as Fleming, that he did give already all the relevant info to the police. But that he did this under an alias, as he wanted no publicity as the victim ex-boyfriend.
Quite a good reason, who would both explain the alias and his initial reluctance to come forward. His past, that of a petty criminal, could also help explaining this reluctance.

And still Astrakhan Man would play his scapegoat partition.

Of course, Abberline would have not easily believed that the jealous and violent ex-fiancé had met Kelly by pure chance that night, after a too long trip to Romford.

It works better with a vague acquaintance ("Mr Hutchinson").

[DVV]

A costermonger is a seller of fruit/vegetables from a barrow, not a plasterer, of course it is possible that this was a reference to Joe Barnett.
Regards Richard.

Oh dear.....Venturney referring to Barnett ????!!!!

Venturney : "She lived with Joe Barnett she frequently got drunk Joe Barnett would not let her go on the streets. Deceased said she was fond of another man named Joe...."

[Malcolm X]

yes H is a real mystery, the case just dies on you, there's nothing after the 13th november , just the rubbish from his son Reg years later.

if JTR is someone called GH, then he's very clever indeed, he's just melted away and never killed again, he also has a very strong will-power/self- control, and if he did kill again then he's downgraded and switched his M.O, plus left London.... he must have !

i'm very unhappy with all of this, you see; i doubt he died/ went insane and i doubt someone like this stopped killing.

the immature/ imbecilic way that he's toyed with his knife does not reflect somebody that simply hates women, he's like a moron, he's very purile... he's cut off her breasts, this is the sort of thing a semi-insane retard would do.

GH is probably someone that we dont know yet, but if so then we have a real problem with these sigs, because they look too close to comfort for me!

because these Signatures are the biggest problem of all, it looks like this GH has stolen Toppy's signature/ identity, practiced it quite often but has never been that good at it, thus he only risked signing the statement once.

no... this is crap isn't it, because this means that JTR must be the same age.....only 22, plus he must also know him quite well.

maybe these two men were once working together digging roads etc, but both living in different Lodging houses, JTR in Victoria and GH around the corner somewhere.

this maybe a similar situation to Flemming, except he's way too tall and slim.

you see JTR has to call himself something, and thus it could have been ``my father Joe Smith is the guy that saw LA DE DA ``, as you can therefore tell; there is absolutely nothing odd about the name GH, because there's probably quite a few JOE SMITHS, THOMAS SMITH, JOE HARRISs etc in this area too

but what it does mean is that JTR has to pick someone's name that he knew quite well for this final murder, my guess is that this is extremely risky indeed......no idea.... maybe

but what about Toppy on his own as JTR ?...... NO WAY, he is not JTR, he's too young, too boring and stable and it's far too easy to be call him JTR
, it'll be far more complicated than this.

[Rubyretro]

!

[QUOTE]]this is the sort of thing a semi-insane retard would do[/QUOTE.
Or Lechmere. You have a good thumbnail sketch.

[Lechmere]

“the immature/ imbecilic way that he's toyed with his knife does not reflect somebody that simply hates women, he's like a moron, he's very purile... he's cut off her breasts, this is the sort of thing a semi-insane retard would do.
Or Lechmere”

Not lately I can assure you.

[richardnunweek]

Hi DVV,
I am well aware of Venturney's comment, however the fact that the 'other Joe' was thought to have been a Costermonger would suggest that he may not have been the 6'7'' Fleming..alias Evans..occupation plasterers labourer.
I suggested that she might have been talking about Barnett simply because at the time of the murder he was a costermonger selling oranges, and that somewhere along the line the Joe's got mixed up in the press.
It would appear that another man called Joe had connections to Kelly, that she was fond of , but apparently treated her badly because of her affections to the other, however the only information we have of any aggravation comes from Barnett himself ie, ''Our quarrel's were soon over''
I get the impression that the jealously angle may have derived from Barnett, who appears capable of having his say, and that he may have been the ill-user , leaving Kelly to remark''I cannot bear the man''.
Summing up.
I am not convinced Venturney's comments were reported accurately, but mayby they were?
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

Hi Richard

I am not convinced Venturney's comments were reported accurately, but mayby they were?
Regards Richard.

Sure they were. See her police statement (9 Nov) : "She told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe (Barnett)"

As for Fleming's trade, I can't see any problem. Barnett talked of Fleming's trade at the time he was living with Kelly : "She lived at one time with a Morganstone, and with Joseph Flemming, she was very fond of him. He was a mason's plasterer. He lived in Bethnal Green Road."

Venturney said he might have been a costermonger. She wasn't sure, hence her : "I think he was a costermonger." By the by, have a quick look at the Costermonger thread, you'll see they weren't mere vegetable dealers, it was something rough.

Finally, we have Fleming the dock labourer in 1889. Which proves he wasn't a plasterer anymore. The picture is thus that of a local man trying to survive by every mean. Perhaps with "no regular employment".

Note also, Richard, that according to your logic, Toppy can't be Hutch since Hutch wasn't a plumber.

[DVV]

the 6'7'' Fleming..alias Evans

It may be time to forget that old joke.
6'7 in the lower class, in 1888.
6'7 for 70kg.
6'7, 70kg and healthy.

And more simply : THAT TALL, and this "detail" never mentioned by Kelly/Barnett/Venturney ?

Henrietta never said gigantism had been in the family for 160 years.
She said insanity.

[Lechmere]

Never mentioned because it wasn't him.

[Sally]

Never mentioned because it wasn't him.

Oh you wish, Lechmere..

[DVV]

Lol

Never mentioned because it wasn't him.

Problem is that the Joseph Fleming who died at Claybury was from Bethnal Green, born 1859, and was the son of a plasterer named Richard Fleming.

And was thus most probably Mary's ex-fiancé (a plasterer from Bethnal Green named Joe Fleming, as described by Barnett). Until you find a better Fleming, which I doubt.

The name, the trade, the location, the age...It's a perfect match.

One has to be mad, or to provide solid evidence, to say "it wasn't him".

[Lechmere]

Closest to 1888 be was a dock labourer.
Or if you prefer a costermonger.
The son of a plasterer isn't a plasterer.
He was 6 foot 7 inches tall.
If this guy was the one then I am sure the police would have got to him when he was sent to the lunatic asylum as they clearly kept themselves informed about admissions.

I think there's a good chance Kelly made the Fleming story up anyway.