Fleming/Hutchinson theory?

[DVV]

Hello Claire

I understand this, David, but I see this as a post hoc rationale for his coming forward. In reality, why would he risk going to the police, albeit pretending to be someone else? You see, for me, there has to be a payback for taking that risk--it doesn't make sense to go along and pretend to be someone else just because someone mentioned your name at the inquest; best to just keep lying low. It's a big risk to take, too--what with Mrs Phoenix trotting along to Leman-street, and Mrs Carthy chatting away to God knows who, and the fair chance that either or both of Joe B and Julia V knew Fleming at least by sight, a Fleming pretending to be someone else could be quickly rumbled and hauled in for questioning.

So what would that payback be? What, specifically, would Fleming have to gain?

It depends on Fleming's personality and feelings at the time.

I suppose different killers come forward, or write to the police, etc, with different motives, for different reasons.

As a suspect/witness, we don't know whether Fleming was present or not at the inquest. What we know is that he did not come forward, and that, had he been present, he would have heard twice that Mary was "very fond of him".
To cut it short, I speculate that Fleming, if the ripper, could have feared that the police was on his trail, once Barnett had uttered his name at the inquest.
He could be interrogated as a witness, and this, if he was the murderer, was already risky. And he would have been asked, first, why he did not come forward without being prompted. That was the most horrible work of the ripper and he was the victim ex-fiancé and regular visitor.
In other terms, after the inquest, coming forward or not coming forward, both were risky - or could look so to Fleming.

By creating Hutch (and his Jewish suspect, who have merits of his own), Fleming came forward without coming forward.

If recognised as Fleming, he could have easily argued he didn't want the publicity he was sure to gain as the ex-boyfriend, but that as Hutch, he did well and provided "true" and relevant info to the police.

The true part, in my opinion, is that he knew Mary and used to help her at times.

[DVV]

Without proper names being given by the various ‘witnesses’ there is no proper corroboration with what Barnett said. It is just supposition.

Nope. It's just a simple and logical conclusion everybody does. Except you. But I guess that proves you right, according to your own logic.

Try to answer the question you were asked and you'll find out, as anybody else, that Barnett and Venturney are alluding to the same guy.

What you believe to be an argument is an obvious and well-documented mistake.

It is supposition that cannot be substantiated without insisting that the Victoria Home Fleming wasn’t really 6 foot 7 inches tall.

The problem of Fleming's (mistaken) height has nothing to do here.

I would suggest that in the field of historical research – the official record that reads 6 foot 7 inches trumps by a country mile a nameless individual mentioned by Mrs Carthy, a Joe mentioned by Mrs Venturney and a name mentioned by an ex to a current boyfriend.

I've already observed that you don't like when Fleming calls himself Fleming. And that a Joe is called Joe is more than you can stand.
Problem is that people do read the sourcebook. They will always think with reasonable confidence that both Barnett and Venturney were talkin of the same Joe.

Was a summary not a decree – the reasoning was outlined a couple of inches further up the page.

The reasoning is thus based on your mistake. That's the problem.

Well Polly Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes for starters. Others can be added as required. Why did Fleming do these – fun?

What a strange question. Why do serial killers do such things, you mean ?

That’s the problem with trying to make one of the cases a domestic.

That also could well turn out to become your problem. There are so many domestic murders in the complicate history of serial killers.

I'm sure you can name dozens without asking me.

[miss marple]

Interesting discussion, I don't believe Hutchinson was Toppy or Fleming.
What intrigues me is the Military appearance, so I had a look at the Census again.
I have found in the 1881 census a George Hutchinson, Soldier,age 19 [ 27 in 88] based at Infantry Camp, St Botolph, Colchester First Ward. From 1854 The East Essex Regiment was based there till 1881. then two Essex infantry regiments were merged.This Hutch was born in Scotland. but may have had Essex connections. I can't find him in 1891. I will keep looking.

Miss Marple

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE]

Interesting discussion, I don't believe Hutchinson was Toppy or Fleming.

Nor do I.

What intrigues me is the Military appearance, so I had a look at the Census again.
I have found in the 1881 census a George Hutchinson, Soldier,age 19 based at Infantry Camp, Street Botolph, Colchester First Ward. He was born in Scotland.which would make him 27 in 88. I can't find him in 1891. I will keep looking.

Miss Marple
That is interesting ! -Thankyou Miss Marple.
I am worried that a Scotsman would have had a huge accent which would have perhaps merited a mention in the papers, though ?

[miss marple]

Ruby ,
Just because he was born in Scotland does not mean he was brought up there. The family may have moved south, he may have been brought up in Essex, There were many Irish born soldiers in the Regiment also.
I will continue to hunt. His military record, would still exist.
There would have been a great diversity of accents in the East End anyway.

Miss Marple

[DVV]

People who consider Sarah Lewis as Hutch main motive (to come forward) should logically admit that Fleming had better reasons than Hutch to come forward, because not only was he Wideawake Hat (still assuming JF is the killer), but the police could also try to trace him as an important witness - ex-fiancé, regular visitor, possibly violent with the victim.

But this thread isn't a Fleming vs Hutch, is it ?

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon
I wouldn't say "desperate", Jon. Having been seen near the CS at such a time is something you can worry about, and since it's a fact that Hutch did come forward on Monday evening, he certainly did so for some reason - reasonable or not.

I believe the reason is considerably simpler than some prefer to admit.

A thorough perusal of the weekend papers (Friday evening to Monday morning) shows that there was confusion about Kelly's time of death. Some reliance was being placed on the statements of Maurice Lewis and Mrs Maxwell, therefore Kelly must have died after 9:00am or thereabouts.
No-one 'knew' at what hour Kelly had been murdered.

With all this in mind we can fully understand why Hutchinson commented "...but I had no suspicion that he was the murderer." He would have had no idea that he had seen Kelly with her murderer until the conclusion of the inquest where her time of death was reasonably established.

Once Hutchinson realized her murder must have occured shortly after he left Millers Court the most natural thing to do would be to go to the police, as another boarder advised him to do, unless he was the actual killer of course (which I don't think).

Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=miss marple;199435]Ruby ,

Just because he was born in Scotland does not mean he was brought up there. The family may have moved south

,

Very good point -I'm looking forward to reading the results of your research !

[DVV]

Hi Jon

the TOD is indeed an important detail. As for Hutch saying he had no suspicion, I think we can it with a pinch of salt. First, some reports say otherwise, and moreover, there is Hutch story about the "Sunday morning sighting". Why searching for a policeman if he had no suspicion ?

But back to Fleming. Don't you think he had much more reasons to worry than Hutch after the inquest ?

If he was the killer, he knew he had been seen by a witness, and he could be traced, now that the police knew his name and relationship with MJK.

Should he come forward ? or not ?

Both were risky, as I've explained, and in such a context, the creation of Hutch the Witness could be a genuine coup de maître.

That was the best thing to do.

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him (nobody knew he had seen something), while Fleming did hear and read people speaking of him in the papers and at the inquest.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Jon

the TOD is indeed an important detail. As for Hutch saying he had no suspicion, I think we can it with a pinch of salt. First, some reports say otherwise, and moreover, there is Hutch story about the "Sunday morning sighting". Why searching for a policeman if he had no suspicion ?

But back to Fleming. Don't you think he had much more reasons to worry than Hutch after the inquest ?

If he was the killer, he knew he had been seen by a witness, and he could be traced, now that the police knew his name and relationship with MJK.

Should he come forward ? or not ?

Both were risky, as I've explained, and in such a context, the creation of Hutch the Witness could be a genuine coup de maître.

That was the best thing to do.

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him (nobody knew he had seen something), while Fleming did hear and read people speaking of him in the papers and at the inquest.

Hi DVV

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him

He might have been. If he heard SL's testimoney at the inquest, or even knew she attended, he may have feared that she saw and recoginized him whilst he waited and watched up the court.

[DVV]

Hi DVV

The essential difference with Hutch is that Hutch didn't fear the police was after him to interrogate him

He might have been. If he heard SL's testimoney at the inquest, or even knew she attended, he may have feared that she saw and recoginized him whilst he waited and watched up the court.

Hi Abby

you've missed the point : I precisely postulate Fleming = Wideawake Hat - just as the postulate is Hutch = Wideawake Hat on some Hutch threads.

I observe that Fleming, if the killer, in addition to Lewis testimony, could have thought the police would try to trace him as Joe Fleming - an important witness, since he was the victim ex-fiancé, her regular visitor, and was now known for having "ill-used" her at times.

So yes, Fleming was in a more delicate situation than Hutch after the inquest.

[Wickerman]

Why searching for a policeman if he had no suspicion ?

Hi Dave.
I suspect the Sunday Morning Market was an ideal place for an out of work labourer like hutchinson to find work. A policeman was on point duty at Markets in fact I found a contemporary photo of a PC in the middle of the Petticoat Lane market.
I don't think he went searching for the PC, one was just readily available.

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate for Kelly's murderer, just from the point of view of a spurned lover, but the suggestion he posed as Hutchinson is a little far out for me. I'll leave others who are better informed on this theory to hash it out :-)

Regards, Jon S.

[Rubyretro]

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate for Kelly's murderer, just from the point of view of a spurned lover,

He would have been exceedingly dim to kill her when she was just newly single again.

[DVV]

Hi Jon

I suspect the Sunday Morning Market was an ideal place for an out of work labourer like hutchinson to find work. A policeman was on point duty at Markets in fact I found a contemporary photo of a PC in the middle of the Petticoat Lane market.
I don't think he went searching for the PC, one was just readily available.

In any case, it means Hutch conceived "suspicions" towards AM somtime between Friday night and Sunday morning. Yet, he did not come forward.

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate

That the most butchered victim, the last of the automn, the only ripper victim ever killed indoors, had a paranoid ex-fiancé who moved to Whitechapel in 1888, never came forward as a witness and finally died in Claybury after 28 years in the loony bin, will ever make Fleming a viable and rather excellent suspect.

the suggestion he posed as Hutchinson is a little far out for me.

This fascinating case may well have an equally fascinating solution. No need to believe in Flemtchinson to post here.

Apparently, there were only two "old acquaintances" MJK was still in touch with in 1888 : Joe and Hutch. Joe used to give her money, according to Venturney, and Hutch said he had occasionally given her money. Both were dossing at the Victoria Home. None of them came forward in time.

Add to this George Hutchinson's elusiveness (unless you're a Toppy freak).

The fact that Fleming is known for having used an alias (James Evans). (Some have argued that the use of an alias was common practice...but I fail to see how this could be conter-argument.... )

And lastly, the excellent reasons Fleming had to come forward as Hutch after the inquest, as I've tried to show.

[DVV]

With respect to Fleming, I had thought Fleming was a good alternate for Kelly's murderer, just from the point of view of a spurned lover
Regards, Jon S.

Jon, do you really think that a man with early criminal records and 28 years in the loony bin as a paranoid should be excluded as a possible ripper ?

On which basis are you saying Fleming can't be a serial killer ?

Even if we forget his bioraphical details, he could be a serial killer as well as many other unknown locals could be....and indeed, there was a serial killer in the area.

Why it couldn't be Fleming a priori is beyond me, my dear.