A Intresting find?

[Beowulf]

Good Morning Bob,
Nothing much in Ripperology is unquestioned fact, and certainly not the identification of Joseph Fleming/Flemming.
We have no idea if the two Josephs ever met, ie Barnett/Fleming,
We have no idea if the latter, did any other work but plastering.
We have no idea if the police even checked out the whereabouts of JF.
We have no idea if F attended Kellys funeral... who was the second man?[ look at the sketch first opinion of the man to the fore]
Until we find some reliable source , one can only agree to differ.
Regards Richard.

I just got back from New Jersey. All the while I read nightly Christopher Scott's book, Will the real Mary Kelly...? Fascinating read, lot of detail, very much a stickler for the real facts.

and the facts in his book about Fleming are:

'In census records his name is spelt FLEMMING. His birth is registered in Bethnal Green in the 2nd Quarter (April to June) of 1859. His father, Richard Fleming, was a plasterer. By the time of 1881 he is listed as following his father's trade of plasterer, but by 1891 he changed his trade and became a boot finisher', although Scott says that information was not written in as such but consists of ditto marks from the entry above, and on occasion he has found this type of entry to be in error.

But a man can likely have had several means of work over a lifetime, which makes me wonder if it is indeed the same man.

[Debra A]

I just got back from New Jersey. All the while I read nightly Christopher Scott's book, Will the real Mary Kelly...? Fascinating read, lot of detail, very much a stickler for the real facts.

and the facts in his book about Fleming are:

'In census records his name is spelt FLEMMING. His birth is registered in Bethnal Green in the 2nd Quarter (April to June) of 1859. His father, Richard Fleming, was a plasterer. By the time of 1881 he is listed as following his father's trade of plasterer, but by 1891 he changed his trade and became a boot finisher', although Scott says that information was not written in as such but consists of ditto marks from the entry above, and on occasion he has found this type of entry to be in error.

But a man can likely have had several means of work over a lifetime, which makes me wonder if it is indeed the same man.

Those are just the facts about Joseph Flemming (originally spelt Fleming in his christening records so spelling cannot be relied upon) the 1881 masons plasterer who most likely fits the bill for MJK's Fleming. I don't think Chris ever says this is definitely MJK's Flemming though?
There's been a lot more Flemming research and information uncovered since Chris's book including the fact that there was another Fleming using the name Joseph (although it was his middle name) in the Bethnal Green area of a similar age who was involved in the boot/shoe industry.
Other research found that James Evans in the asylum was definitely the son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, that was also supposition until recently as it wasn't in his asylum records but it was in the orders of removal file for him.

[lynn cates]

Will the real Joseph Fleming . . .

Hello Debs. This is good to know. Now, I think, we will pursue fewer false trails.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hello Debs. This is good to know. Now, I think, we will pursue fewer false trails.

Cheers.
LC

Somehow I don't think we will, Lynn. Obviously, not many people read new research posted to the message boards. I have posted reams and reams about the other Joseph Barnett from Bethnal Green, trawled his workhouse records and settlement files and mentioned more than a few times there were two men and that their records may have been confused a couple of times in the past.
Monograph time?

[lynn cates]

monograph

Hello Debs. Thanks.

Monograph time? Absolutely! And I know one bloke who will be eager to buy a copy.

Cheers.
LC

[Chris Scott]

Hi all
Thanks for the kind mention of the Kelly book and Debs is absolutely right about the work that has been done on Fleming since the book came out in 2005. A new edition should have been out by now but both family problems and publishing issues have conspired against me but I am confident the new version of the Kelly book - with new material from Corey Browning and Justin Dombrowski - will be out by the end of the year.
A large part of the new material on the two Flemings has been done by Debs and my sincere thanks to her - some of us DO read new research;-)
In the original Kelly book my position was that in the light of material then available the most likely candidate was the plasterer mentioned. But he was only ever "most likely"...

[Beowulf]

Those are just the facts about Joseph Flemming (originally spelt Fleming in his christening records so spelling cannot be relied upon) the 1881 masons plasterer who most likely fits the bill for MJK's Fleming. I don't think Chris ever says this is definitely MJK's Flemming though?
There's been a lot more Flemming research and information uncovered since Chris's book including the fact that there was another Fleming using the name Joseph (although it was his middle name) in the Bethnal Green area of a similar age who was involved in the boot/shoe industry.
Other research found that James Evans in the asylum was definitely the son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, that was also supposition until recently as it wasn't in his asylum records but it was in the orders of removal file for him.

Deb, I have a hard time following this. Are you saying James Evans and Joseph Flemming, one and the same and was not the Joseph Fleming who was involved with MJK? Or are you saying that it was and if so why was he in an asylum?

I do try to read the latest updates but, like others I'm sure, not always able to get the time. My work days are 14 hours long, several in a row at times. Hard to keep up with anything on my schedule.

Boy, I do look forward to another book, Chris. I really looked forward to the times I could spend reading even just a paragraph or two. Absorbing.

[Beowulf]

Deb, I have a hard time following this. Are you saying James Evans and Joseph Flemming, one and the same and was not the Joseph Fleming who was involved with MJK? Or are you saying that it was and if so why was he in an asylum?

I do try to read the latest updates but, like others I'm sure, not always able to get the time. My work days are 14 hours long, several in a row at times. Hard to keep up with anything on my schedule.

Boy, I do look forward to another book, Chris. I really looked forward to the times I could spend reading even just a paragraph or two. Absorbing.

I'm wondering why Joseph Fleming didn't go to the police after Kelly's murder to offer up anything he could about her life, people she knew...?

Since he had been involved with her in the past and they were questioning Hutchinson and Barnett and others about her life, why not Fleming?

[Jurriaan Maessen]

Those are just the facts about Joseph Flemming (originally spelt Fleming in his christening records so spelling cannot be relied upon) the 1881 masons plasterer who most likely fits the bill for MJK's Fleming. I don't think Chris ever says this is definitely MJK's Flemming though?
There's been a lot more Flemming research and information uncovered since Chris's book including the fact that there was another Fleming using the name Joseph (although it was his middle name) in the Bethnal Green area of a similar age who was involved in the boot/shoe industry.
Other research found that James Evans in the asylum was definitely the son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, that was also supposition until recently as it wasn't in his asylum records but it was in the orders of removal file for him.

There's also an intriguing little snippet in the case notes during Flemings time at Stone Asylum, perhaps referencing the patients former profession as a plasterer even though his admittance registred "Dock labourer" as Flemings former employment:

"Feb 13th 1893: Today whilst being examined previous to discharge, he (Fleming) was found to express many delusions stating that the writer's name was Isaacs, he was an old friend of the writer and frequently played at cocoanut shying with him in the Mile End Road and that he also repaired the writer's house; his discharge was at once cancelled and he was sent back to the wards."

Although hardly conclusive, it does add some extra substance to the assumption that the Joseph Fleming admitted to Stone (and Claybury respectively), son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, was indeed the Joseph Fleming referenced by Joseph Barnett in his inquest testimony.

[Debra A]

There's also an intriguing little snippet in the case notes during Flemings time at Stone Asylum, perhaps referencing the patients former profession as a plasterer even though his admittance registred "Dock labourer" as Flemings former employment:

"Feb 13th 1893: Today whilst being examined previous to discharge, he (Fleming) was found to express many delusions stating that the writer's name was Isaacs, he was an old friend of the writer and frequently played at cocoanut shying with him in the Mile End Road and that he also repaired the writer's house; his discharge was at once cancelled and he was sent back to the wards."

Although hardly conclusive, it does add some extra substance to the assumption that the Joseph Fleming admitted to Stone (and Claybury respectively), son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, was indeed the Joseph Fleming referenced by Joseph Barnett in his inquest testimony.

I agree, Juriaan. It was established by the City of London settlement records that I once posted, that the James Evans/Joseph Fleming at Stone and Claybury asylums was the son Richard and Henrietta Fleming, Richard being a plasterer by trade.
I think the main point of the discussions on this thread were concerned with his identification in 1891, and I think the 1891 boot finisher mentioned by Chris is more likely to have been the Edward Joseph Fleming who went by the name Joseph Fleming all his life and was once apprenticed to a shoe maker as settlement records relating to him show. [Edward] Joseph is also highly likely to be the man in the workhouse in November 1888 when MJK was murdered, once suggested to be MJK's Fleming
.
There was some discussion earlier in this thread that the spelling of the name Fleming could differentiate between these two men and I attempted to show that wasn't the case. I know I also did say that we couldn't take it for granted that the son of a shoemaker would become a shoemaker or that the son of a plasterer would become a plasterer but I think there's a very high probability that is what happened and MJK's 'mason's plasterer' was the son of Richard and Henrietta. But one interesting thing about Edward Joseph, shoemaker's son and one time apprentice shoemaker was that he did give an address of Bethnal Green Road once in workhouse records, which is an address given for MJK's Joseph.

[Jurriaan Maessen]

I agree, Juriaan. It was established by the City of London settlement records that I once posted, that the James Evans/Joseph Fleming at Stone and Claybury asylums was the son Richard and Henrietta Fleming, Richard being a plasterer by trade.
I think the main point of the discussions on this thread were concerned with his identification in 1891, and I think the 1891 boot finisher mentioned by Chris is more likely to have been the Edward Joseph Fleming who went by the name Joseph Fleming all his life and was once apprenticed to a shoe maker as settlement records relating to him show. [Edward] Joseph is also highly likely to be the man in the workhouse in November 1888 when MJK was murdered, once suggested to be MJK's Fleming
.
There was some discussion earlier in this thread that the spelling of the name Fleming could differentiate between these two men and I attempted to show that wasn't the case. I know I also did say that we couldn't take it for granted that the son of a shoemaker would become a shoemaker or that the son of a plasterer would become a plasterer but I think there's a very high probability that is what happened and MJK's 'mason's plasterer' was the son of Richard and Henrietta. But one interesting thing about Edward Joseph, shoemaker's son and one time apprentice shoemaker was that he did give an address of Bethnal Green Road once in workhouse records, which is an address given for MJK's Joseph.

Thanks Debs. Yes, I ploughed through almost every post on the subject on Casebook and JTR Forums and now I am ready to be put in an asylum. Just wondering: was the Edward Joseph the Fleming admitted for an inflamed leg at one point?
I put out a request to the Redbridge Museum and Heritage Centre a few days ago for the case notes (if available) of Fleming/Evans pertaining to his 25-year stay at Claybury Asylum, which was then forwarded through to the collections officer there. I am aware of the fact that a short summary of his details has previously been released by the Health Authority (2009), but it was literally one paragraph. My request specifically relates to any and/or all case notes pertaining to this patient from the period of his admission on 14th February 1895 to his death on 28th August 1920. I'm not getting my hopes up, of course, but I seem to remember that certain records can only be acquired after a hundred years after the patient died. I don't know this for a fact though. We'll see.

[Scott Nelson]

It seems almost certain that police attempted to trace Fleming at the time of the Kelly murder, but failed for some reason.

[Jurriaan Maessen]

It seems almost certain that police attempted to trace Fleming at the time of the Kelly murder, but failed for some reason.

Well, one would assume the police would have made such an attempt, but 'almost certain' would be too strongly put. I was wondering if it was commonplace for the police in those days to follow-up on ex-boyfriends in the wake of any major murder investigation, because I cannot for the life of me find any reference to such a query anywhere. We have three seperate statements on Fleming in relation to the deceased: from Barnett, from Mrs. Carthy of Breezer's Hill, and (most likely) from Julia Venturney, who mentioned the "other Joe" ill-using Kelly on occasion, but there doesn't seem to exist any report or mention of a subsequent investigation into Fleming beyond the superficial queries at the Kelly inquest itself. Now I don't believe for one second that Fleming can in any way be tied into the murder, as some have casually proposed throughout the years, but I do share your wonderment by the lack of documentation regarding any such query. There is some speculation as to the possibility of Fleming having already used the alias James Evans in 1888, in which case the police would have a very hard time tracking the man down. The most plausible explaination however is that the police just didn't find it prudent to pursue the matter beyond perhaps a few superficial attempts shortly after they interviewed Barnett.

[Debra A]

Thanks Debs. Yes, I ploughed through almost every post on the subject on Casebook and JTR Forums and now I am ready to be put in an asylum. Just wondering: was the Edward Joseph the Fleming admitted for an inflamed leg at one point?
I put out a request to the Redbridge Museum and Heritage Centre a few days ago for the case notes (if available) of Fleming/Evans pertaining to his 25-year stay at Claybury Asylum, which was then forwarded through to the collections officer there. I am aware of the fact that a short summary of his details has previously been released by the Health Authority (2009), but it was literally one paragraph. My request specifically relates to any and/or all case notes pertaining to this patient from the period of his admission on 14th February 1895 to his death on 28th August 1920. I'm not getting my hopes up, of course, but I seem to remember that certain records can only be acquired after a hundred years after the patient died. I don't know this for a fact though. We'll see.

Thanks Jurriaan, I do remember the summary that was posted. I was under the impression that there was no other information available so it would be great if something turned up due to your request.
I think Joseph Fleming aka James Evans was admitted for a leg injury once, pre 1888? But also there was a Joseph Fleming b c 1859 was admitted to the Infirmary in 1908 with an injured leg, and was sent on to Banstead asylum.

[MrBarnett]

It seems almost certain that police attempted to trace Fleming at the time of the Kelly murder, but failed for some reason.

Then they will have attempted to trace ‘Morgenstern’ too, presumably?