A Intresting find?

[claire]

The only potential problem with Edward Joseph Fleming is that, in 1891, living in Peabody Square, he has a few children, the eldest of which (another Edward) is 9. (Oddly, this chap also ended up with a wife named Julia.) However, he is still listed as a Dock Labourer, which is all jolly interesting, actually, particularly when you consider the conditional of Mrs Phoenix's 'he would have married her.' So...if this was our chap...was it the case that he would have married her, were it not for the small business of another wife (who could alibi him up to the eyes and eliminate him at an early stage)?

Just idle speculation, of course.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Claire,
Have you by any chance been able to Trace any Fleming relevant, in the 1891/1901 census, I have access to Ancestry, but Henrietta's son appears nowhere.
Rather like the elusive Joseph Barnett.
This seems like a episode of a old tv programme'Fact or fiction', why did we assume many moons ago, that a certain Joseph Fleming that had plastering as a occupation, and was born in 1859, and had a mother named Henrietta, was the actual bloke that Barnett was talking about, and why did we all assume that this man resided at the Victoria home in August 1888, but ended up as a dockworker, ended up insane, and was confined under the name of James Evans, until his death in 1920.
But then believe that this individual was infact a 6'7 giant, and then recently suggest[ by yours truely] that he worked at the Warehouse warehouse with his mate Tibbet, who went on to be a influence in the early years of the labour part.
The clues are there, but my brain cells are diminishing fast..
Regards Richard.

[Debra A]

The only potential problem with Edward Joseph Fleming is that, in 1891, living in Peabody Square, he has a few children, the eldest of which (another Edward) is 9. (Oddly, this chap also ended up with a wife named Julia.) However, he is still listed as a Dock Labourer, which is all jolly interesting, actually, particularly when you consider the conditional of Mrs Phoenix's 'he would have married her.' So...if this was our chap...was it the case that he would have married her, were it not for the small business of another wife (who could alibi him up to the eyes and eliminate him at an early stage)?

Just idle speculation, of course.

Thanks Claire, I think (but not 100% certain)that is Edward John Feming though, born 1858 Mile End.
Births Jun 1858 Fleming Edward John Mile End 1c 490, as far as I remember he appears in 1891 only as Edward J Fleming?

It looks like Edward Joseph Fleming, son of George and Sarah used the name Joseph and not his true name of Edward. Interestingly in 1891 there is a Joseph Flemming found by Chris Scott who is a shoemaker, I don't have the details to hand though. George Fleming, father of Edward John was a shoe maker.
So, we have Joseph Flemming plasterer in 1881, now, is he the son of Richard Flemming plasterer, or of George Flemming shoemaker?
And is the Joseph Flemming in the 1891 census, who matches birthdate wise etc, listed as shoemaker, the son of George the shoemaker or Richard the plasterer?
Both started life with the surname Fleming with one 'm' by the looks of it anyhow.

[claire]

Yes, it seems likely, with an Edward John Fleming seemingly marrying a Julia Coughlan in Q3 of 1880 in Bethnal Green.
Who is the Joseph Flemming of the 1891 census, who is a shoe maker? The only one I could find, born 1858 in Deptford, was the Joseph Flemming, single, in one room in West Ham, listed as being a dock labour[er]. The only semi-corresponding record I can find is to a Joseph Fleming [sic], born in Deptford, but in 1861 (it says he was 2 days old at the time of the census), son of Margaret and Michael. I can't find him (either one, if they are indeed distinct) any later than the 1891 census.
Honestly, my brain has ceased working on this, too, Richard...I'm seeing people where they are not, and I can't remember the provenance of some of the things I assumed we knew about Fleming.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Claire,
Now I am extra confused, England are obviously 'Over Paid and over here' what a aweful display, 0-0 ...
Richard.

[claire]

Yes, imagine a zip-zip against Algeria. Shameful

[Debra A]

Who is the Joseph Flemming of the 1891 census, who is a shoe maker? .

I mistakenly credited Chris Scott with finding the shoemaker Joseph Flemming in 1891, but it was in fact Sam Flynn who found the reference, and he was boot finisher, not shoemaker as I said.

Here's the thread from this forum on the subject;

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=1936

[claire]

Thanks, Debra, I've seen that one before as a possible candidate. So, who is Joseph Flemming, born abt. 1858 (listed in Deptford, although I have not been able to find this), who lived in Charlotte Road/Street at the time of the 1891 census, listed as being a dock labour[er]?
(I don't think this can be the Charlotte Road just on the margins of our reference area, as it is listed as being West Ham.)

[Debra A]

Good question, Claire!
I haven't had a chance to look into that one. I might give it a go later but it does make your head spin after a while doesn't it?

BTW, Chris, Thanks for deciphering 'New Inn yard' The N and the I were much too similar for me to have ever guessed at that.

[claire]

It does! I have to limit myself to an hour or so at a time or I start seeing double, treble...or one, where there are three I've tried digging for him, but nothing obvious springing up thus far...

[tnb]

Thanks, Debra, I've seen that one before as a possible candidate. So, who is Joseph Flemming, born abt. 1858 (listed in Deptford, although I have not been able to find this), who lived in Charlotte Road/Street at the time of the 1891 census, listed as being a dock labour[er]?
(I don't think this can be the Charlotte Road just on the margins of our reference area, as it is listed as being West Ham.)

There are far better minds than mine on here Claire with regards to census research, but with my own particular interests something leapt out at me about your post which I thought may come in useful for any further 'digging' (although it could be simply a coincidence, and I fully accept that ).

A metalworks company known as Ditchburn and Mare were founded, in Deptford, in 1837; in 1857 after some financial difficulties they relocated to Canning Town and were renamed as Thames Ironworks. I am oversimplifying somewhat but this is the basic story.

With this in my mind you can probably see why certain details from your account of this man leapt out at me - a family seemingly relocating from Deptford, where they had been in or around 1857, to West Ham (Canning Town is close to West Ham, and I wouldn't mind betting a fair number of Thames Ironworks staff lived in or near that area; the company's football team became West Ham United FC). Certainly if your 'about 1858' was actually a year or two earlier, then it could certainly be the case that we may have a family headed by a D&W/Thames Ironworks worker here.

Just thought it might be an avenue worth looking into if those better equipped than I are looking for this particular Flemming. As I say I could be talking rubbish, however!

[tnb]

Thanks, Debra, I've seen that one before as a possible candidate. So, who is Joseph Flemming, born abt. 1858 (listed in Deptford, although I have not been able to find this), who lived in Charlotte Road/Street at the time of the 1891 census, listed as being a dock labour[er]?
(I don't think this can be the Charlotte Road just on the margins of our reference area, as it is listed as being West Ham.)

There are many better minds than me on here with regards to census research, Claire, but with certain of my interests in mind there were a few bells set a-ringing by your query, and I thought you or others may find the following interesting - I could of course be barking up a completely wrong, coincidental tree however :-)

A metalworks company known as Ditchburn and Mare were founded, in Deptford, in 1837; in 1857 after some financial difficulties they relocated to Canning Town and were renamed as Thames Ironworks. I am oversimplifying somewhat but this is the basic story.

With this in my mind you can probably see why certain details from your account of this man leapt out at me - a family seemingly relocating from Deptford, where they had been in or around 1857, to West Ham (Canning Town is close to West Ham, and I wouldn't mind betting a fair number of Thames Ironworks staff lived in or near that area; the company's football team became West Ham United FC). Certainly if your 'about 1858' was actually a year or two earlier, then it could certainly be the case that we may have a family headed by a D&W/Thames Ironworks worker here.

Just thought it might be an avenue worth looking into if those better equipped than I are looking for this particular Flemming. As I say I could be talking rubbish, however!

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ladies,
The reference to Shoemaking is intresting, if we are led to believe that Tillett stated that two of his friends , one of them the 'Brawny Giant ' known as Fleming worked together at the Monument Warehouse at the docks,,and also note that Tillett himself, after moving to Bethnal Green became a bootfinisher, that may be the connection.
It was stated that he became unemployed from that , and ended up at the docks, rather like his mate Fleming.
Question did they work together in the early 1880?
Both had connection to Bethnal Green, they were the same age, and they both worked as bootfinshers[ family connections?] and this Fleming was of large appearance, just like the inmate calling himself James Evans.
But was this Joseph Fleming...was their any connection?
Regards Richard.

[DVV]

Hi Richard,

...you still believe in Giraffe-Joe-that-spat-on-Mary's-grave ?

5'7, I tell you !

Amitiés,
David

[claire]

Thanks, tnb...it's always worth a look; at the very least, it's a direct geographical line. (Nice website, too, btw )

Richard, I wish we could find more memoirs et c either of Tillett's or his associates that might help us to narrow down the identity of his Fleming...if he was, or was known as, Joseph, then we've something. If not, I fear the numbers game is against us.