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  • #76
    Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
    Good Morning Bob,
    Nothing much in Ripperology is unquestioned fact, and certainly not the identification of Joseph Fleming/Flemming.
    We have no idea if the two Josephs ever met, ie Barnett/Fleming,
    We have no idea if the latter, did any other work but plastering.
    We have no idea if the police even checked out the whereabouts of JF.
    We have no idea if F attended Kellys funeral... who was the second man?[ look at the sketch first opinion of the man to the fore]
    Until we find some reliable source , one can only agree to differ.
    Regards Richard.
    I just got back from New Jersey. All the while I read nightly Christopher Scott's book, Will the real Mary Kelly...? Fascinating read, lot of detail, very much a stickler for the real facts.

    and the facts in his book about Fleming are:

    'In census records his name is spelt FLEMMING. His birth is registered in Bethnal Green in the 2nd Quarter (April to June) of 1859. His father, Richard Fleming, was a plasterer. By the time of 1881 he is listed as following his father's trade of plasterer, but by 1891 he changed his trade and became a boot finisher', although Scott says that information was not written in as such but consists of ditto marks from the entry above, and on occasion he has found this type of entry to be in error.

    But a man can likely have had several means of work over a lifetime, which makes me wonder if it is indeed the same man.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Beowulf View Post
      I just got back from New Jersey. All the while I read nightly Christopher Scott's book, Will the real Mary Kelly...? Fascinating read, lot of detail, very much a stickler for the real facts.

      and the facts in his book about Fleming are:

      'In census records his name is spelt FLEMMING. His birth is registered in Bethnal Green in the 2nd Quarter (April to June) of 1859. His father, Richard Fleming, was a plasterer. By the time of 1881 he is listed as following his father's trade of plasterer, but by 1891 he changed his trade and became a boot finisher', although Scott says that information was not written in as such but consists of ditto marks from the entry above, and on occasion he has found this type of entry to be in error.

      But a man can likely have had several means of work over a lifetime, which makes me wonder if it is indeed the same man.
      Those are just the facts about Joseph Flemming (originally spelt Fleming in his christening records so spelling cannot be relied upon) the 1881 masons plasterer who most likely fits the bill for MJK's Fleming. I don't think Chris ever says this is definitely MJK's Flemming though?
      There's been a lot more Flemming research and information uncovered since Chris's book including the fact that there was another Fleming using the name Joseph (although it was his middle name) in the Bethnal Green area of a similar age who was involved in the boot/shoe industry.
      Other research found that James Evans in the asylum was definitely the son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, that was also supposition until recently as it wasn't in his asylum records but it was in the orders of removal file for him.
      ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

      I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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      • #78
        Will the real Joseph Fleming . . .

        Hello Debs. This is good to know. Now, I think, we will pursue fewer false trails.

        Cheers.
        LC

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        • #79
          Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
          Hello Debs. This is good to know. Now, I think, we will pursue fewer false trails.

          Cheers.
          LC
          Somehow I don't think we will, Lynn. Obviously, not many people read new research posted to the message boards. I have posted reams and reams about the other Joseph Barnett from Bethnal Green, trawled his workhouse records and settlement files and mentioned more than a few times there were two men and that their records may have been confused a couple of times in the past.
          Monograph time?
          ,,`,, Debs ,,`,,

          I am not DJA. He's called Dave.

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          • #80
            monograph

            Hello Debs. Thanks.

            Monograph time? Absolutely! And I know one bloke who will be eager to buy a copy.

            Cheers.
            LC

            Comment


            • #81
              Hi all
              Thanks for the kind mention of the Kelly book and Debs is absolutely right about the work that has been done on Fleming since the book came out in 2005. A new edition should have been out by now but both family problems and publishing issues have conspired against me but I am confident the new version of the Kelly book - with new material from Corey Browning and Justin Dombrowski - will be out by the end of the year.
              A large part of the new material on the two Flemings has been done by Debs and my sincere thanks to her - some of us DO read new research;-)
              In the original Kelly book my position was that in the light of material then available the most likely candidate was the plasterer mentioned. But he was only ever "most likely"...

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              • #82
                Originally posted by Debra A View Post
                Those are just the facts about Joseph Flemming (originally spelt Fleming in his christening records so spelling cannot be relied upon) the 1881 masons plasterer who most likely fits the bill for MJK's Fleming. I don't think Chris ever says this is definitely MJK's Flemming though?
                There's been a lot more Flemming research and information uncovered since Chris's book including the fact that there was another Fleming using the name Joseph (although it was his middle name) in the Bethnal Green area of a similar age who was involved in the boot/shoe industry.
                Other research found that James Evans in the asylum was definitely the son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming, that was also supposition until recently as it wasn't in his asylum records but it was in the orders of removal file for him.
                Deb, I have a hard time following this. Are you saying James Evans and Joseph Flemming, one and the same and was not the Joseph Fleming who was involved with MJK? Or are you saying that it was and if so why was he in an asylum?

                I do try to read the latest updates but, like others I'm sure, not always able to get the time. My work days are 14 hours long, several in a row at times. Hard to keep up with anything on my schedule.

                Boy, I do look forward to another book, Chris. I really looked forward to the times I could spend reading even just a paragraph or two. Absorbing.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Beowulf View Post
                  Deb, I have a hard time following this. Are you saying James Evans and Joseph Flemming, one and the same and was not the Joseph Fleming who was involved with MJK? Or are you saying that it was and if so why was he in an asylum?

                  I do try to read the latest updates but, like others I'm sure, not always able to get the time. My work days are 14 hours long, several in a row at times. Hard to keep up with anything on my schedule.

                  Boy, I do look forward to another book, Chris. I really looked forward to the times I could spend reading even just a paragraph or two. Absorbing.
                  I'm wondering why Joseph Fleming didn't go to the police after Kelly's murder to offer up anything he could about her life, people she knew...?

                  Since he had been involved with her in the past and they were questioning Hutchinson and Barnett and others about her life, why not Fleming?

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