A Intresting find?

[richardnunweek]

Hi.
Obviously meant a Lie down, or better still a stiff drink... or two, one useful aspect of the JTR case is it keeps ones brain active, and aged 63.5, I certainly need to keep that stimulated, especially as I have eighteen months remaining before I can become a couch potatoe.
Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

All explained.

OK I think I get it now. It’s not an unquestioned fact because I’m questioning it. So if I understand you now because Fleming is the approximate age and birthplace, along with others, and because his father was a plasterer he wins the nomination. That’s fine I was just unsure whether or not there was some additional information, such as a diary or newspaper report or what have you, which backed up the nomination.

So he wins because he might be the one, in just the same way as others might be the one.

[richardnunweek]

Good Morning Bob,
Nothing much in Ripperology is unquestioned fact, and certainly not the identification of Joseph Fleming/Flemming.
We have no idea if the two Josephs ever met, ie Barnett/Fleming,
We have no idea if the latter, did any other work but plastering.
We have no idea if the police even checked out the whereabouts of JF.
We have no idea if F attended Kellys funeral... who was the second man?[ look at the sketch first opinion of the man to the fore]
Until we find some reliable source , one can only agree to differ.
Regards Richard.

[Bob Hinton]

You won't find me arguing with that Richard.

[The Good Michael]

Bob,

Just caught this thread. Following your progression makes a lot of sense to me. It also removes the concept of a 6'7" man from the equation for folks who want to believe that Fleming is the murderer.

Good work.

Mike

[Debra A]

From research I've recently done in the Bethnal Green and Poplar workhouse records and posted on JTRforums:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=11601&highlight=%22joseph+flemming%22&page=2

I think I have managed to separate the two Joseph Flem(m)ings both born c 1859/60 in Bethnal Green, in the 1881 and 1891 census.

I personally believe that it is definitely Joseph Fleming alias James Evans, son of Henrietta and Richard Fleming that is the man who appears on the 1881 census at Crozier Street, listed as a plasterer.

The son of George and Sarah Fleming, discussed in this thread, frequently listed as an inmate at the Waterloo Rd Bethnal Green workhouse but appearing in the 1881 census at the Poplar union workhouse after being sent there from Bethnal Green.
My research is presented on the forums thread for anyone to check through and comment on/correct. Thanks

[DVV]

Hello Debra

I agree that the indication "plasterer" is decisive, while the spelling is a common mistake (as we know from the inquest).

In 1881 both Joseph and Jane had left the family.

Many thanks

[DVV]

I wonder whether Richard Fleming's height can be found in the Shoreditch records.

I wanna know how short he was.

[lynn cates]

lux fiat

Hello Debs. Thanks. Good work as always!

Perhaps we can see a light at the end of the tunnel regarding Fleming.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Hi all,
I am not [ ashamed to say] known for research, however it is possible that I have come across something of intrest.
I have found a connection between Bethnal Green, and the Monument tea Warehouse at the docks, in which Joseph Fleming may have worked in 1887.
I was researching into Cutler street and its tea warehouse, when I came across a meeting held in 1887, over a pay dispute.
Ben Tillett, who was to become very powerful in the labour ranks attended that meeting along with Harry Orbell, who was to become first president of the Tea operatives and General Labourers Association, both of these had conection to Bethnal Green, the former living there in the 1881 census, and the latter born there, and to my knowledge still residing there, also both of these were born 1860.
So where does Fleming fit in to this.?
The following is taken from Tilletts memoirs.
The men who had taken the initiative in calling this meeting were my workmates, one or two of them my best friends, 'Fleming, the BRAWNY GIANT',and Harry Orwell, who became president of our union.
Is this our Joseph Fleming, ?
Is this confirmation of his size?
All three men had connections to Bethnal Green, all three of these men named, worked at the Monument tea warehouse at the docks. and all were the same age.
I recall that it has been claimed that victims were found near tea warehouses, the obvious being Mitre square.
We also have one letter claiming to be from Cutler street.
Did the killer have connections with the tea trade?
And finally was the man Tillett describes our infamous Joseph Fleming.?
Every chance I would suggest.
Regards Richard.

Hi Richard.
I was just looking through Ben Tillett's memoirs that you mention and found that the "Brawny Giant" Fleming was really named Flanagan, as Tillett mentions a few pages before describing the events at cutler St:

[lynn cates]

thanks

Hello Debs. Great find. Ironically, I had thought to do a bit more research on Tillett. You have obviated a good bit of work.

Cheers.
LC

[Debra A]

Thanks, Lynn. It obviously didn't interest the person I thought it would but never mind, I'm glad you found it useful.

[richardnunweek]

Hello Debra,
I do indeed find it extremely fascinating, actually I had forgotten all about Tillett and the Fleming connection.
So we have a brawny giant called Fleming , whose real name was Flanagan, using the former as a alias, which seems to end all speculation that he was Kelly's ex beau, that ended up in a asylum under the alias Evans ..or does it??
Regards Richard,

[Debra A]

Hello Debra,
I do indeed find it extremely fascinating, actually I had forgotten all about Tillett and the Fleming connection.
So we have a brawny giant called Fleming , whose real name was Flanagan, using the former as a alias, which seems to end all speculation that he was Kelly's ex beau, that ended up in a asylum under the alias Evans ..or does it??
Regards Richard,

Hi Richard,
It ends speculation that the "Brawny Giant" Flanagan, alias Fleming, was the same person as the other 'giant' Joseph Flem(m)ing in the asylum. We now know from the Orders of removal records that I posted for Flemming alias Evans that he was definitely the son of Henrietta and Richard Flemming.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Debra,
Yes it is definite proof,at least that theory lies dead and buried.
well done.
Regards Richard.