Fleming in 1872

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
Regarding Fleming's appearances in the census, the section below (from my forthcoming book!!) detail the records for Fleming and his family
Hope this helps
Chris

Now to Fleming himself. His name appears in the available records under the spellings of Flemming and Fleming, but as his birth was registered under the latter form, that is the one I shall adopt. He was born in Bethnal Green in 1859, the son of Richard and Henrietta Fleming. His mother's maiden name was Henrietta Masom and his parents had married in Lambeth in 1842. Joseph was the only surviving boy in a family of four - he had an older sister Jane (born 1857) and two younger sisters, Mary Ann (born 1863) and Jessie (born 1868). Two other sisters appear to have died young - Henrietta (born 1846) and Sarah (born 1849) as well as an older brother William (born 1856) who also disappears from the record. Joseph followed his father's trade, as Richard Fleming is also listed as a plasterer, and it is through his father that we find the connection with Ramsgate, for Richard Fleming was born in the town. Richard was born in 1821 and the earliest mention of the family occurs in the 1841 census:
St. Lawrence Street, St Lawrence, Kent
Head: Richard Flemming aged 46 - Baker
Wife: Mary Flemming aged 45
Children:
Richard aged 20 - Baker
Alfred aged 9
By 1851 things had changed considerably. Richard's aged father is listed as a pauper in the Minster Workhouse:
Richard Fleming aged 58
Pauper
Former baker born Ramsgate.
Richard Jnr. had by this time married and moved to London. He and his family are listed in 1851 as follows:
7 Fellows Street North, Shoreditch
Head: Richard Fleming aged 29 born Ramsgate - Plasterer
Wife: Henrietta Fleming aged 29 born Camberwell
Children:
Henrietta aged 6 born Shoreditch
Sarah aged 2 born Shoreditch

In 1861 the family is listed as follows:
60 Wellington Street, Bethnal Green
Head: Richard Fleming aged 39 born Ramsgate - Plasterer
Wife: Henrietta Fleming aged 40 born Camberwell
Children:
William aged 5 born Shoreditch
Jane aged 4 born Shoreditch
Joseph aged 2 born Bethnal Green

In 1871 the family were at the same address:
Head: Richard Fleming aged 49 born Ramsgate - Plasterer
Wife: Henrietta Fleming aged 49 born Camberwell
Children:
Jane aged 14 born Hoxton
Joseph aged 12 born Bethnal Green
Mary Ann aged 8 born Bethnal Green
Jessie aged 3 born Bethnal Green

By 1881 Joseph had left the parental nest and we will follow more of his life later. His father, Richard Fleming, died in Shoreditch in 1894 aged 72. His mother, Henrietta, lived on until 1912 when she died in Shoreditch aged 90.

However, back to Ramsgate! Although Joseph's father, Richard, left for London when young, his uncle, Alfred Fleming, stayed in the town. His addresses in consecutive census years are as follows:
1851: Alfred, listed as a journeyman bricklayer, is a lodger in King Street. He lodges in a public house called the Plough, run by George Star.
1861: Alfred has married and has a family. He and his wife Sarah live at Castle Cottages, St Lawrence. They have three children - Clara aged 10, Henry aged 5 and Sarah aged 2.
1871: The family still live at Castle Cottages. Alfred and Sarah have two more children - Alfred aged 7, Ellen aged 3 and a grandchild, Ernest aged 1.
1881: The family have moved to Finsbury Road. Two more grandchildren are listed - William aged 8 and Maud aged 11 months.
1891: Still at Finsbury Road, the family have acquired further grandchildren: Edith aged 7, George aged 5, Francis aged 3 and Hettie aged 2.
1901: Alfred, now widowed, is living with his daughter and son in law at Hardres Street.
Alfred Fleming died in Ramsgate in 1903 at the age of 70.

So what happened to Joseph Fleming, Mary Kelly's former lover? The story is both mysterious and intriguing. Four years after the Whitechapel murders, in 1892, Joseph Fleming was admitted to the Stone Asylum, the City of London asylum near Dartford, Kent. Some two and a half years later, in February 1895, he was transferred to Claybury Hospital at Woodford Bridge in Essex. He was still at Claybury when he died on 28 August 1920. His age given at death was 65 but he would actually have been 61, being born in 1859. His death was registered under the name of James Evans, so how can we connect this man with Joseph Fleming? His records while he was a patient at Stone Hospital list his mother as Henrietta but the confirmation comes from Fleming's death certificate which gives his original name. The death certificate in full reads as follows:
"28 August 1920 at Claybury Mental Hospital, Urban District.
Joseph Fleming, otherwise James Evans.
Male, 65 years.
Of City of London Union Infirmary.
Previous address unknown. Chargeable to Bethnal Green, a dock labourer.
Cause of death, Pulmonary Tuberculosis, 6 months, 13 days
P.M. Certified by F. Paine, acting Medical Superintendent, Claybury Mental Hospital, Ilford, 1 September 1920."
Fleming is listed at Claybury Asylum in the 1901 census as follows:
Pauper Patient:
James Evans aged 45
Single
Dock labourer
Born Bethnal Green
Lunatic

For the 1881 - 1891 period this from the Kelly book might help:
By the time of the 1881 census, Joseph had left home and was living in lodgings in 61 Crozier Terrace which was in Homerton, north east of Bethnal Green. By this time he is listed as following his father's trade as a plasterer. His landlady was Ellen Copping, a 35 year old laundress. Also living in the household were Ellen's two daughters - Emily aged 13, and Ann aged 2 - and a second lodger, John Percy, a 27 year old ropemaker, also born in Bethnal Green.

Joseph's family is listed in the 1881 census as living at 4 Cyprus Street and is itemised as follows:
Head:
Richard Fleming aged 59 born Ramsgate, Kent - Plasterer
Wife:
Henrietta Fleming aged 59 born Camberwell, Surrey
Children:
Mary Ann aged 19 born Bethnal Green - Brace machinist (Fancy goods textiles)
Jessie aged 13 born Bethnal Green
Other:
Alice W Rickiam aged 65 born Southsea, Hampshire - Nurse
Emma E Emsworth aged 41 born Lambeth - Lodger

By the time of the 1891 census, Joseph's father, Richard Fleming, is listed as an inmate in the Shoreditch District Infirmary. His details are given as:
Richard Fleming, Married, aged 70, Plasterer, born Ramsgate, Kent.
Richard Fleming's death was registered in Shoreditch in the 1st Quarter of 1894. (Volume 1c Page 59)

In the 1891 Census, Joseph's mother and younger sister are listed as living at 123, Lever Street, City Road as follows:
Head:
Henrietta Fleming aged 69 born Camberwell - Married
Daughter;
Jessie Fleming aged 23 born Bethnal Green - Brace machinist

[Chris Scott]

These are the full names and birth places of the Flemings I mentioned above:

1858
John Joseph Fleming 1858 Jul-Aug-Sep Weardale Durham
Joseph Fleming 1858 Oct-Nov-Dec Guisborough Yorkshire - North Riding

1859
Joseph Fleming 1859 Jan-Feb-Mar Stourbridge Shropshire, Staffordshire, West Midlands, Worcestershire
Joseph Fleming 1859 Apr-May-Jun Bethnal Green Greater London, London, Middlesex
Joseph Fleming 1859 Jul-Aug-Sep Hunslet Yorkshire - West Riding
Joseph Fleming 1859 Jul-Aug-Sep Penrith Cumbria, Cumberland

1860
Frederick Joseph Fleming 1860 Jan-Feb-Mar Isle of Wight Hampshire, Isle of Wight
John Joseph Fleming 1860 Jul-Aug-Sep Lambeth Greater London, London, Surrey
Jonah Joseph Fleming 1860 Jan-Feb-Mar Westminster St Margaret Middlesex
Joseph Fleming 1860 Apr-May-Jun Wakefield Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
Joseph Fleming 1860 Jul-Aug-Sep Lambeth Greater London, London, Surrey
Joseph Fleming 1860 Oct-Nov-Dec Manchester (1837-1924) Lancashire
Joseph Fleming 1860 Oct-Nov-Dec Stockbridge Hampshire, Wiltshire
Louis Joseph Fleming 1860 Jan-Feb-Mar Halifax Yorkshire - West Riding, West Yorkshire
William Joseph Fleming 1860 Jan-Feb-Mar Stafford Staffordshire

[Debra A]

Hi all,

Hi all,

Thank you Chris et al.

Looks like there are two Joseph Flemings born in 1858 who might suit the bill better than our man.

I agree, but as I posted earlier, on the 1871 census there don't appear to be any Joseph Flemings b c 1858, there's 'our' Joseph and then a couple of younger ones b c 1860/61. the same appears to be true for the 1881 and 1891 census. Only on the 1861 census does one Joseph Fleming b 1858 appear in London. (These are my own personal findings and could be wrong so I'm not stating it as a fact)
Death, or moving away from London should be taken into account when just going by births.
A boy who appears in court and his previous is known looks like a born and bred local to me, so an incomer to London in 1872 may be out too.

David,
The best person to give an accurate answer to your question on Bethnal Green's closeness to Bow would be Rob Clack I think....Rob?

[claire]

Thanks for this info, Debs and Chris--just catching up on this now.

I feel the same as you about this, Fisherman. The minor offending, the quick escape across a 'brickfield', the loitering, seem to tease one's suspicions in that direction.

One other thing. Something has been nagging at me for a while, and I can't remember if this is a memory or a dream (or a 'From Hell' Abberline moment )...did Fleming ever work for George Lusk, in Lusk's capacity as a builder?

[Fisherman]

David writes:

"he could easily give his age as 14"

Maybe so, David. But would not his age carry implications for the length of the punishment? Would he not benefit from a lower age in such a case? Just a thought.
All in all, one can´t help feeling that there is a very good chance that this was "our" Joseph Fleming in the making. Starting out with minor offences is often very typical.

The best,
Fisherman

[DVV]

Joseph Fleming was born on 17 March 1859.
In November 1872, he was 13 years and 8 months old.
So he could easily give his age as 14.

[DVV]

Hi all,
and many thanks to Debra and Chris,
Where were born the 2 "1858" Flemings?
In November 1872, "our" JF was 13 years and some months old, since he was born in the 2nd quarter of 1859. His age could then be given as 13 or 14...
In 1871, Fleming's family was living at 60 Wellington Street, Bethnal Green.
Is that far from Bow?

[Captain Hook]

Hi all,

Thank you Chris et al.

Looks like there are two Joseph Flemings born in 1858 who might suit the bill better than our man.

Our Joseph Fleming (Mary Kelly's one-time lover) was said to have been a plasterer or stonemason, though near the end of his active life, before he was interned in an asylum, he worked as a dock labourer. According to his birth certificate, his father, Richard, was also a plasterer. His mother's maiden name was Mason - but that's surely a coincidence.

I can see how a stonemason might use an iron chisel in his work, though I couldn't vouch for it. I'm not so sure about a plasterer.

Cheers
Hook

[Chris Scott]

Births
Joseph Fleming
1858 - 2
1859 - 4
1860 - 9

[Debra A]

might be, but I can't recall how many Joseph Flemings of similar age we have to choose from. Can anyone refresh my memory?

I think there were three in all, Claire, which led me to think that this was the same Joe Fleming when I originally found the story (thanks to Chris for digging it out again)
I searched in the 1871 census for all variations of the forename Joseph, surname Fleming/Flemming b +/- 5 years either side of 1858 living in London only.
Only our man came up and two younger boys.
Maybe Chris Scott or someone else can confirm this.

[claire]

might be, but I can't recall how many Joseph Flemings of similar age we have to choose from. Can anyone refresh my memory?

I'm interested, too, in the fact that this Fleming had been 'previously convicted,' but not for burglary...I wonder for what. Finally, the presence of an iron chisel, whilst a million miles from being damning, speaks to me a little of someone in one of the construction trades. I know this is more hunch than considered opinion, but I'd be willing to put a small bet on this being our Mr Fleming aka all sorts of things once he'd got a clear message about the consequences of the police being aware of your previous...

[Captain Hook]

Hi all,

Fleming was born on 17 March 1859. He was not yet 14 in November 1872. So it might be another Joseph Fleming.

Cheers
Hook

[Ben]

Excellent find, Chris.

A Joseph Fleming who attempted to break into a building after being seen "loitering" in the vicinity before hand? Talk about the plot thickeneing!

Thanks to Debs too, and David for remembering about it.

Best wishes,
Ben

[Chris Scott]

Here it is
Times 20 Nov 1872

[Debra A]

Sorry David,
I remember posting a brief mention on this ages ago, it was something to do with burglary via a window I seem to recall? (Can't find the thread I first mentioned it in)
I haven't been able to track the original story down again or find anything else either.