Fleming in 1872

[Captain Hook]

Fleming's chisel

Finally, the presence of an iron chisel, whilst a million miles from being damning, speaks to me a little of someone in one of the construction trades.

Hello Claire et al.

A few days ago I disagreed with your opinion quoted above, saying that I could see how a stonemason might use an iron chisel in his work, but wasn't so sure about a plasterer. I stand corrected. I have consulted a friend in the building trade who told me that a plasterer would definitely carry a chisel in his toolbox. This would not be a carpenter's chisel, with a wood or, nowadays, plastic handle, but an iron or cold chisel fashioned entirely out of iron or steel. A plasterer would use this tool together with a hammer in order to smooth down any irregularities on the surface of the wall to be plastered, such as lumps or "snots" of cement or protruding bricks. A chisel is, of course, a tool often used in breaaking and entering

So if allowance is made for Fleming's age - a few months below 14 - and bearing in mind that his father was a plasterer and would therefore have counted chisels among his tools, he could indeed be the same Fleming who years later lived with Mary Jane Kelly in Bethnal Green and ended his days caged in an asylum.

It is worth recalling that Fleming also went by the name "James Evans". Perhaps he had some encounters with the police under that name as well.

Cheers
Hook

[DVV]

Thanks again everybody,
I didn't know that Wellington St became Cyprus St, and that's interesting, since Fleming's family is recorded at Wellington St in 1871, and in Cyprus St ten years later.
Just like Debra and Ben, I think that the 1872 thief is "our" Joe. Age and location really seem to prove it.

Amitiés,
David

[Debra A]

Thanks Rob, Ben and Chris,
Rob, it didn't mean that much to me but glad Ben was able to suss it out!

Bellhaven still doesn't show up for me in Bethnal Green or Bow on the street searches of any census on the site I use

[Ben]

Many thanks for clearing that one up, Rob.

In which case, we're talking about an extremely close proximity to the former Belhaven location (and the site of the Ada Wilson attack to boot). "West of Grove Road the remaining space, north of the railway, was covered with Belhaven and Burnside streets"* is an almost precise description of the area covering Cyprus Street, then Wellington Street:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&q=cyprus%20street&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=il

He was literally piddling on his own doorstep!

*From: 'Bethnal Green: Building and Social Conditions from 1837 to 1875', A History of the County of Middlesex: Volume 11: Stepney, Bethnal Green (1998), pp. 120-126.

Cheers,
Ben

[Rob Clack]

At some point between 1870 and 1894 Wellington Street became Cyprus Street.





Rob

[Ben]

Wish I could tell you, Debs. Surprised there was nothing for 1871, considering that the attempted burglary occured a year later. Thanks for the confirmation re Wellington Street. "Street" and Row" referred to the same location according to this article: http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...x?compid=22749

Thanks for the link, Chris. Interesting to see it stated that Bellhaven Street was in Bethnal Green as opposed to Bow. On geographical grounds alone, I'd be extremely surprised if this wasn't "our" Joe.

All the best,
Ben

[Chris Scott]

This is the 1881 enumerator's sheet for Bellhaven Street in 1881

[Rob Clack]

Hi Debs,

Don't know if this will help. This is the 1894 O.S. and some of the surrounding streets.



Rob

[Chris Scott]

The Wellington Street where the Flemings lived in 1861 is described as follows:
District:
Bethnal Green/Green/District 19
Municipal Ward: East
Ecclesiastical District: St John's

This is definitely named as Wellington Street not Row (see below)
Hope this helps
Chris

[Chris Scott]

Bellhaven Street still existed in 1885 as it mentioned in an Old Bailey case at

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org.uk/browse.jsp?path=sessionsPapers%2F18850518.xml

[Debra A]

Hi Ben,
Do you have any idea when Belhaven Street was demolished? I've street searched every census from 1871 to 1891 and couldn't find it listed.
Fleming and his family definitely lived on Wellington Street at Bethnal Green.

[Ben]

Hi all,

It turns out that the scene of the attempted burglary, Belhaven Street, has been demonlished, but was formerly located to the West of Grove Road in Bow, just North of the railway. Oddly enough, this was a stone's throw away from the scene of the Ada Wilson attack, where the victim was attacked in her home by a wideawake-wearer of about 30 years old. Thanks to Chris' efforts, we know that Fleming lived in Wellington Street at the time of the attempted burglary. I'm not sure if this was the Wellington Street in Bow or, more likely, "Wellington Row" in Bethnal Green, a short walk to the West of the Belhaven Street location.

Best regards,
Ben

[Chris Scott]

Hi Debs
Glad it was of use:-)

[Debra A]

Thanks for all this Chris.
I think your full birth index enties post confirms what I have been trying to say all along...that Joseph Fleming b 1859 Bethnal Green is the most likely fit to the 14 year old Joseph Fleming appearing in Worship Street court in 1872.

[Chris Scott]

The one important piece of information that is missing is where Fleming was at the time of the 1891 census
I found a close match in terms of age and birthplace but there are objections to this identification:
1) He is listed as a boot finisher
2) He is listed as married, even though a spouse is not listed
3) His surname is spelled Flemming
This individual was staying at a lodging house at 9 Victoria Park Square, Bethnal Green
It is possible that by the time of the 1891 census he was already using the name James Evans but I have not found a satisfactory match under that name either
If anyone has found Joseph Fleming in the 1891 census I would be grateful to hear of it
Chris