The Madness of Joseph Fleming

[perrymason]

Thanks Sam,.... geez...you'd think Id remember that her surname was McCarthy.

Cheers Mate

[DVV]

she's obviously relaying information from part of a conversation between her and mary...

Exactly, and that's why the police most probably never found Joe Fleming.
About whom Barnett was also "relaying information from Mary".
One tells of a costermonger named Joe.
The other has a mason's plasterer from Bethnal Green.
But Fleming wasn't to be found there.

Amitiés,
David

[Suzi]

Hi all-
Just been ploughing though this thread


As a by the way- just checked 'Gauger ' in Chambers- as Joe described Mary's father,John Kelly, in the iron (tin?) works in Canarvonshire(Camarthen?)- Chambers tells me-'One who gauges (!); an excise man

Interesting 'eh

Suz x

DVV- a MASON'S plasterer eh? .......bit of a cover up I say.............

[Suzi]

It's Carmarthen!! - the area figured largely in the tin plate and metal working industry at the time. The industries were of course centred on the South Wales coal industry used to fuel the furnaces...anthracite being the popular option!
Caernarvon of course is probably best known for slate and the wonderful Welsh gold!

Suzi x

[caz]

Hi All,

So for those of you who think Hutch and Flem were one and the same, would you assume that Mary Kelly never knew Flem as Hutch, and that he was just dotting his i's and crossing his t's when pretending after her death that she had actually addressed him as "Hutchinson"?

Presumably, for the whole ruse to work so well, nobody who knew Joe the costermonger, or was aware of his existence, must ever have cottoned on to the fact that he was also George the groom, the chap of "military bearing" and friend of the deceased, who had emerged to make those detailed statements to the police and the press and then disappeared again.

How easy would that have been to pull off, unless Fleming only adopted the Hutchinson alias for his brief appearance in the spotlight? Even then, he could hardly have felt at ease while going walkabout with the cops, if half a dozen people could have passed him and said "What you up to Joe?"

Logistics, anyone?

Love,

Caz
X

[Fisherman]

I´ll drink to that, Caz - The HMS Flemchinson is leaking pretty badly to my mind too.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Caz,

Even then, he could hardly have felt at ease while going walkabout with the cops, if half a dozen people could have passed him and said "What you up to Joe?"

Firstly, it should be remembered that Fleming had only moved into the district in August of 1888, so unless he was some hugely conspicuous man-about-town, he was unlikely to have had many acquaintances who knew his name. Indeed, if he was using an alias from the outset of his time in the district, was relatively solitary in his habits, and was only known to those with whom he worked, there's no reason why anyone in the murder district would have known him as "Joe".

The other equally salient point is the total lack of evidence that any of the Miller's Court witnesses had ever clapped eyes on the "real" Joe or knew anything about him beyond what Kelly herself had told them. Even if they had seen him in the company of Kelly, there was only a very slim chance of any of them being able to put a face to the name, whether it be Joe, George, or Dr. Francis.

The "ruse" is only dependant on the two identities not being recognizable in the district, which would be easy to pull off if he'd only arrived in the district in August and had kept a low profile. With Barnett on the scene for much of the time, he was hardly likely to have been seen in her company very much.

All the best,
Ben

P.S. There is no evidence, beyond Hutchinson's own claims, that he was ever a "groom".

[Ben]

I´ll drink to that, Caz - The HMS Flemchinson is leaking pretty badly to my mind too.

Says the guy who follows me all over the place and tries to discredit me unsuccessfully wherever he can.

[Fisherman]

If you don´t start anything, Ben, I won´t. I DO think that the Flemchinson scenario IS full of holes, and I can´t see why I would not be entitled to that wiew. The points Caz mention can be added to by numerous other points, as you must be aware. So let´s keep things civil, shall we...?

Fisherman

[Ben]

I'm absolutely fine for keeping things civil, Fish. In fact, it's my new year's resolution as far as internet message board discussions go. Yes, I think Caz's observations are reasonable, but I'm equally confident in the validity of my rebuttals. Sorry you can't be persuaded otherwise, but we're all entitled to our differing opinions as you wisely note.

All the best,
Ben

[Fisherman]

Fine enough, Ben. Then I have just one further request, and that is that you futurewise refrain from stating on these boards that I follow you around. As far as I can see, the first time we connected today out here, it was you who posted on an issue I was taking part in. If you can manage this, I think we have a fair chance of not bothering other posters too much with our disagreements.

Fisherman

[perrymason]

Hi,

Just a quick note on Caz's questions,....since the only evidence that we have that "Hutchinson" knew Mary Kelly at all is his word, adding that she referred to him as "Hutchinson" on the fateful night...and since not one witness that testified at the Inquest that actually provably knew Mary.... to our knowledge... was called in on Tuesday and questioned on whether they saw Hutchinson with Mary ever, or heard his name ever mentioned by her, ...it seems to me that when he comes in Monday night, he has the luxury of not chancing being named by courtyard residents or witnesses as either Hutchinson or Fleming.

I dont recall reading that any courtyard witness known by Mary said they actually saw or met the other "Joe".

Best regards Caz, all.

[caz]

Hi Perry,

While that may be so, it all sounds rather too convenient (and precariously so) for a man who suddenly feels compelled to come under the spotlight and identify himself (using an alias) and explain his presence in case Lewis should recognise him again.

Maybe Mary was fond of the type of man who kept himself to himself and managed to avoid being seen with her, either as Fleming or Hutchinson. But how does that fit with a man who goes on to seek publicity after her death, and comes across as perfectly sociable, amenable and normal when speaking at length with the police and press, but is actually as mad as a box of frogs, which only becomes apparent at a considerably later date?

I must say, I never thought I'd hear quite such a complex suspect-based theory to explain the murders - or find anyone giving it serious consideration. Hutch as Hutch the Ripper was complex and unlikely enough for me. Fleming as Hutch the Ripper takes it to a new level of stretching.

Love,

Caz
X

[Varqm]

Hutch as Hutch the Ripper was complex and unlikely enough for me.

I agree.

Could not even establish the simplest requirement, whether Hutch was actually there at 2:30 A.M. as he said. A simple fact on which the theories
stand.

[Varqm]

Fleming though is curious a fellow . But unless we know more about him we can't go flying.