The Madness of Joseph Fleming

[Sam Flynn]

Michael writes:

"What do you think Joe Fleming gets for his coins? Maybe the ability to knock on her window and get let in late at night sometimes? And isnt that one of a few very plausible suggestions as to how the killer met up with Mary that night?"

Since you ask, Michael: it truly is!

How so, Fish? For one thing, I'm not so sure that it's recorded that Joe Fleming gave Kelly money; for another, even if he did, he had lodgings of his own.

[richardnunweek]

Hello folks,
I have been a Barnett man for donkeys years, however my attitude is somewhat changing, and I agree with Michael that a certain Joseph Flemming/fleming [incase Bob is watching] has far better credentials.
We have that old motive Jealously for one, also the mention of him ill-using her, for her association with the other man that shared his christian name.
We have his residence during that autumn at a certain 'Victoria home', which was situated right in the area of all the murders.
But most important of all we have the insanity, and a description of his mania.
A jealous insane man, and the Ripper murders ending with the death of Mjk, this individual has to be one major candidate, and should be investigated with every resource one can.
Regards Richard.
Merry xmas all.

[perrymason]

How so, Fish? For one thing, I'm not so sure that it's recorded that Joe Fleming gave Kelly money; for another, even if he did, he had lodgings of his own.

I cant recall which of Marys friends mentions it Sam, but logic dictates it was either Julia or Maria, Barnett wouldnt have said it, nor would anyone who knew her less well than those two women.

Lodgings of his own implies he was seeking shelter, I think we both know better than that if it was he who showed up at 3:45am "ish" in Millers Court...his bed at the Victoria Home, which according to Ben he wasnt even registered at, ..wouldnt be as inviting as the one in Millers Court, cause it also had a 26 year old partially dressed woman in that one.

Best regards Sam.

[Sam Flynn]

I cant recall which of Marys friends mentions [Fleming giving Mary money]...

...neither can I, Mike We have Barnett testifying that he gave Mary what money he had, and Hutchinson claiming to having given her some shillings on occasion. Apart from that, all I can recall Fleming's (or "another man named Joe", to be more faithful to Julia Venturney's testimony) being said to have given Mary is some "ill-use" now and then.

[perrymason]

...neither can I, Mike We have Barnett testifying that he gave Mary what money he had, and Hutchinson claiming to having given her some shillings on occasion. Apart from that, all I can recall Fleming's (or "another man named Joe", to be more faithful to Julia Venturney's testimony) being said to have given Mary is some "ill-use" now and then.

Now that youve mentioned that, Im, fairly certain were talking about a press interview with Julia. Which one might take time,...Ill get back to you.

I do feel Ill find a quote, Im fairly sure...but what actual value it may have, is out of my hands.

All the best Sam.

[Ben]

Hi chaps,

Off hand, I recall that the "Fleming giving her money" detail may have originated from Venturney's police statement, but I don't have my sourcebook handy!

Best regards,
Ben

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Ben,

It was in her inquest testimony. This should be cued up right, but if not, it's on page 416. That's right, Evans & Skinner is online.

http://books.google.com/books?id=DnRuLnT62ksC&printsec=frontcover&dq=evans+%26+skinner#PPA416,M1

Hope this helps,

Roy

[Ben]

Thanks for that, Roy. Much appreciated. I couldn't access the exact page from your link, but I'll gladly take your word for it!

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Roy

However - picking up on Ben's point about her police statement - Venturney attributes the money-giving to Joe Barnett: "I knew the man who I saw down stairs (Joe Barnett) he is called Joe, he lived with her until quite recently. I have heard him say that he did not like her going out on the streets, he frequently gave her money, he was very kind to her, he said he would not live with her while she led that course of life."

Whilst the official inquest files indeed record her as saying that "the other Joe" was prone to give her money, they also show that she believed this "other Joe" was a costermonger.

There appears to be some real confusion in Julia Venturney's testimony on this specific point. I may be wrong in this, but whereas many press reports state that Venturney testified that Joe Barnett was kind to Mary, none of them appear to record her saying that "the other Joe" gave her money. Is this another instance where the official record is to be found wanting, and the journalists' accounts closer to the truth?

[Roy Corduroy]

Well Sam, I don't rightly know the answer. Her Police statement and inquest testimony together. (I have bolded her part about the "other Joe.")

From Evans & Skinner - Statement of Julia Venturney 9 Nov 1888

I occupy No 1 room Millers Court I am a widow, charwoman but now living with a man named Harry Owen. I was awake all night and could not sleep. I have known the person occupying No 13 room opposite mine for about 4 months. I knew the man who I saw down stairs (Joe Barnett) he is called Joe, he lived with her until quite recently. I have heard him say that he did not like her ["because" - deleted] going out on the streets, he frequently gave her money, he was very kind to her, he said he would not live with her while she led that course of life, she used to get tipsey occasionally. She broke the windows a few weeks ago whilst she was drunk, she told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe (Barnett). I saw her last about ["1.40" - deleted] pm yesterday. Thursday about 10 A.M

Inquest:

Julia Venturney having been sworn deposed as follows: I live at No 1 room Millers Court I am a charwoman I live with Harry Owen I knew the female who occupied No. 13 room she said she was a married woman and her name was Kelly. She lived with Joe Barnett she frequently got drunk Joe Barnett would not let her go on the streets – Deceased said she was fond of another man named Joe who used to come and see her and give her money I think he was a costermonger she said she was very fond of him – I last saw her alive on Thursday about 10 a m having her breakfast with another woman in her room. I went to bed on Thursday night about 8 oclock I could not sleep all night I only dozed I heard no one in the court I heard no singing I heard no scream – deceased often sung Irish songs.

Was not the Kelly inquest the only one where we have the official record? Is that what you mean Sam, that the newpaper coverage of this portion of testimony is different?

[Roy Corduroy]

All things considered, eveything Julia said pales to the hearsay she repeated from the lips of the deceased - she told me she was very fond of another man named Joe, and he had often ill-used her because she cohabited with Joe (Barnett) which was contained in the police statement. The question of if this "Joe" was giving her money really doesn't matter opposed to the above statement. (IMHO)

Otherwise, we're playin Buckaroo!

[Sam Flynn]

Was not the Kelly inquest the only one where we have the official record?

Not quite, Roy - the official Eddowes records also survive(d).

Is that what you mean Sam, that the newpaper coverage of this portion of testimony is different?

That appears to be the case, as far as I can tell. None of the papers (not even those who take a "verbatim" approach to reporting the proceedings), appear to record Venturney saying that "the other Joe" used to give Mary money.

Your observation about "Buckaroo" is spot-on, by the way - and you used the term correctly! 'Tis enough to note that "the other Joe" (whom we assume to be Fleming, and of whom Mary was very fond) would ill-use Kelly on account of her living with Barnett.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Your observation about "Buckaroo" is spot-on, by the way - and you used the term correctly! 'Tis enough to note that "the other Joe" (whom we assume to be Fleming, and of whom Mary was very fond) would ill-use Kelly on account of her living with Barnett.

And as such (in police eyes) surely a suspect in the murder of Mary Kelly. In my eyes the police acting on the information supplied surely must have sought out the Joe who ill used Mary Kelly. I'd say Fleming was interviewed, and if he was it certainly wouldnt have done his fragile mental health any good, actually it could have tipped him over, resulting in his subsequent collapse.

all the best

Observer

[Fisherman]

Observer writes:
"In my eyes the police acting on the information supplied surely must have sought out the Joe who ill used Mary Kelly."

Feasible. But would they have gone looking for a James Evans in doing so?

All the best!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Observer,

The chances of Fleming having been tracked down by the police are incredibly slim, considering that he moved into the murder district in August of 1888, and was known to resort to an alias. If he'd been using that alias since that August, which wasn't a very long time, there's no reason to suppose that anyone at the Victoria Home knew him as Fleming.

Best regards,
Ben