The Madness of Joseph Fleming

[Uncle Jack]

I've been reading briefly that he was confined and died in an asylum or mental hospital but can anyone enlighten on his mental state and why he was confined to a hospital? It would be interestring to see if he was a violent maniac or something less so. And do we know the date when he was admitted to the asylum?

Alos, a little off topic, do we know when Fleming and MJK actually parted and broke up, so to speak??

Best regards

Adam

[Fisherman]

Hi Adam!

Of Fleming it was said that he suffered from mania and delusions of persecution, and that he was abusive languagewise.

The best, Adam!
Fisherman

[Uncle Jack]

Thanks very much friend, much appriciated.

Best regards

Adam

[DVV]

Hi Adam,
an interesting detail is that Fleming's mother said something like: "madness has been in the family for 160 years".

Amitiés,
David

[joelhall]

Hi Adam,
an interesting detail is that Fleming's mother said something like: "madness has been in the family for 160 years".

Amitiés,
David

she must have been very old

[DVV]

Don't laugh, Joel.
She's still alive and ready to post.

[DVV]

2 "writos"...?

Good evening all,
...
On his admission to the City of London Asylum at Stone, Fleming/Evans was described as 6'7.
This, no doubt, was a typo (or rather a "writo", as put by Ben).
And as Sam Flynn had pointed out: "5 and 6 are easily confused by the slip of a smudgy pen."

Now, the same records mention that Henrietta, Jo's mother, has revealed that "insanity has been in the family for 160 years".
The number 160 looks strange in such circumstances.
And though I haven't seen the original documents, I bet that the same "smudgy pen" has written 6'7 for 5'7, and 160 for 150.
So we have a man of average height, and madness for one century and half.
And nothing to baulk at...

Amitiés all,
David

[Ben]

An excellent observation, David, and one that lends additional support to the theory that the registrar was writing fives that looked like sixes. 160 years is an oddly precise estimate of the number of years in which mental illness afflicted the family and the height of 6'7 is just, well, odd. As you sensible note, a dodgy looking number "5" on the part of the registray may resolve matters here.

Best regards,
Ben

[thewastelandr]

Either that or he could have been a basketball player...

[Bob Hinton]

Confusion?

Surely the person we should be looking at is 'Flemming' not 'Fleming'?

[Sam Flynn]

Surely the person we should be looking at is 'Flemming' not 'Fleming'?

Spellings vary, Bob - indeed, as Chris Scott discovered, Flem(m)ing's birth certificate shows his name with only one "M", and other family members appear under the "single M" variant in a number of census entries.

[perrymason]

Hello all,

Whether single "M", double "M", 150 or 160 years of family madness, this guy is a known certifiable that is having a relationship with Mary while she is also having one with Barnett, ...what if......what would happen to someone who has uncontrollable moments when what he thought was his girlfriend denies him the ability to move into Barnett's vacant side of the bed...perhaps even with a job and ability to take care of Mary somewhat.

I think Fleming found out something about Mary Jane that he didnt know until then, although the signs are clearly there...Mary was someone that one poor man couldnt keep. Thats why she is seeing both Joe's simultaeneously, and maybe more "Joe's", not because she still had some unrequited true love for him.....remember, the story is that he wanted to marry her, and since they didnt get married but still see each other, I have to assume she didnt say "yes", but was either fearful or greedy enough to allow him to remain in, or return to, her life to some degree.

My thinking is that her Parisienne adventure was her first attempt at being "kept" by someone with means, and she couldnt handle the civility, and good behaviour. She needed fun...drinking..but she still felt that she deserved nicer things while doing that.

Best regards all.

ps......around 3:45am on November 9th a man taps on the door, or window, of a woman sleeping...a woman that he is intimate with at times, but does not have the ability to come and go, in this room, as he pleases. Perhaps this woman had performed some sex act before sleeping, or not, but the room, and her, smell of "man". She knows why he is here, and isnt in any mood to have to make him feel wanted right now, so "oh-murder" is just before, "its so late"....which is almost whispered, and said when she is facing back into the room, having turned immediately from the silouette in the doorway surrounded by backlight from the gas lamp across the way, and shuffled back towards her bed....she leaves some room for the visitor to slide in bed behind her.

My bet is that had she said nothing to anger the man, or if he hadnt been there specifically to kill her, or got the impulse while there, she might have woken up Mayors Day with Joe Fleming.

All the best for the Holidays y'all.

[The Good Michael]

Ah! I know where I've seen this before: Oliver Twist!

Fleming is Bill Sykes. Mary Jane Kelly is none other than Nancy, with Bet being played by Maria Harvey. Fagin is of course, John McCarthy. Maybe the rumor of MJK having a son is an allusion to Oliver himself?
Mike

[perrymason]

Ah! I know where I've seen this before: Oliver Twist!

Fleming is Bill Sykes. Mary Jane Kelly is none other than Nancy, with Bet being played by Maria Harvey. Fagin is of course, John McCarthy. Maybe the rumor of MJK having a son is an allusion to Oliver himself?
Mike

Since Im sure the above refers to the fact that both stories are plausibly constructed using data that is known from the period in question,.....

Dramatic or not, Mary Jane was in at least a love triangle,.. hell, it may have been an octagon for all we know, one of her known lovers at the time of her death will within a few years be institutionalized for life, One lover had recently been asked to move out, perhaps another denied the opportunity to move in. Both men gave her money.

When Barnett gave her money while living there, it was to try and pay some of at least his share of the rent, and when he comes to give her money now, its on that premise,.. for the arrears or to live on without going "selling herself".

What do you think Joe Fleming gets for his coins? Maybe the ability to knock on her window and get let in late at night sometimes? And isnt that one of a few very plausible suggestions as to how the killer met up with Mary that night?

"Plausible" would mean that the story should be founded on some evidence at least. Since there is no trustworthy evidence that she left, he gets in the room somehow, without Mary screaming bloody murder, instead perhaps just a "faintish" "oh-murder".

Cheers Baronator, Happy Holidays.

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"What do you think Joe Fleming gets for his coins? Maybe the ability to knock on her window and get let in late at night sometimes? And isnt that one of a few very plausible suggestions as to how the killer met up with Mary that night?"

Since you ask, Michael: it truly is!

Happy holidays! Stay well!
Fisherman