What makes Druitt a viable suspect?

[Herlock Sholmes]

So where is the proof that Druitt murdered any of the ripper victims. . MM himself declares there is no proof against anyone.Funny how the posters who most cry out for evidence and proof,are now ignoring the one person,MM, who states there was none,and at the same time quoting him (MM) as the only source of a case against Druitt.
What a Shambles. Druitt the best suspect,Please have some respect for the man.

Where is the proof that any named suspect killed any of the ripper victims? There isn’t any Harry. So why do we have to apply more stringent criteria to Druitt than to any other suspect? There is no shambles here in fact it is quite simple in a way. Sir Melville Macnaghten said that he had good reason to believe that Druitt was a very likely suspect. That’s enough to make him a suspect unless you, or anyone else, has any sound reason to assume that Macnaghten was either a liar or a man so gullible that he’d take in any old **** and bull story and place it on record for those higher in the chain than him to read. Do you honestly think that in a society where men were far more protective of things like honour and reputation; a society where they were so class conscious that it would lead them to assume that no gentleman could have committed the crimes, that Macnaghten would for absolutely no evidential reason, purely through a bit of hearsay according to Trevor, incriminate an upper class Barrister and schoolteacher with no record of violence or criminality? Surely it’s pretty obvious that Mac named Druitt for, what he believed, were genuine reasons. He also mentions the Druitt family and a connection between Mac and the Druitt family has been established.

Funny how the posters who most cry out for evidence

Im sorry Harry but the only ones in this discussion that are being open, fair-minded and cautious are those of us who believe that Druitt is at the very least worth looking into. Some of those on the other side are just blanket dismissing him and treating the rest of us who take a more even view as gullible fools. And so we get laughably biased posters like Trevor and Baron who will stoop to anything to dismiss Druitt (I wonder why)

.Please have some respect for the man.

How about a little respect for Sir Melville Macnaghten? Or does he simply deserved to be labelled a liar or a gullible idiot? Or even at least a tiny bit of respect for all of those people that actually knew and worked with him and held him in such high regard? Fair’s fair Harry.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’ve been censored

[Herlock Sholmes]

I'm sure you are familiar with the book by Howells & Skinner - The Legacy of Jack the Ripper? This was the first time a serious theory was put together suggesting Druitt might have been murdered. I agreed at the time, and still do even though I always refer to Druitt as a suicide.

I certainly think Druitt's death, and the circumstances surrounding it is a mystery all of it's own, regardless of his candidature as Jack the Ripper.

I certainly accept these points Wick. On the face of it it appears an obvious suicide and I’m certain that the Coroner came to the correct decision based on what he knew but the surrounding circumstances were certainly mysterious (the return ticket to name but one.) I’d certainly be open to discussing the pros and cons but would we need a new thread?

[The Baron]

And of course, if Druitt was murdered, What will remain correct of Macnaghten's given informations about Druitt ?!

NOTHING, Nil, Zero.

Are those the sort of informations that man can rely upon?!



The Baron

[Wickerman]

This is something I was thinking about last night Wick. If Monty had been sacked from the Blackheath School because he’d gotten into some ‘serious trouble’ is it likely that he’d have retained his lodgings?

Agreed, though it is not certain which lodgings were mentioned. The chambers at Kings Bench Walk had living accomodation at the top floors, still do today if I'm not mistaken.

I think it was David Andersen who suggested that if Montie was dismissed from the school, and as Friday 30th Nov. was the end of the school term, then he might have been expected to have his things removed, as presumably the school would be closing for christmas.

The third suggestion comes from the idea that Montie had some mental problems, Andersen suggested he might have voluntarily (perhaps with some urging from William?) have taken a room at the Manor House with the Tukes, both as a place to stay & to get some treatment.
The Tukes could keep Montie's mental problems quiet being family friends, but maybe they didn't want to be party to harbouring a suspected murderer?
Apparently, the Tukes had a separate register for voluntary patients, sadly it has not survived.

So, how many of these suggestions are true? - are we looking at 9 Kings Bench Walk, or 9 Elliot Place, or a room at the Manor House - which "room" did the press article refer to?

Then there’s the gap between when he was last seen and when he was pulled out of the Thames. This points to Druitt writing his suicide note days before he actually committed suicide. Then of course we have the return ticket. Murder isn’t an impossibility.

Yes, who buy's a return ticket if they intend to kill themselves before they use it?
In my view, on Dec. 1st, when he bought the ticket he had no intention of suicide - so what changed?
And, of course there's the question, why carry valuables on him when he still had a room somewhere, where he left the note?
I don't normally theorize about Montie being murdered, but I always keep it at the back of my mind as a possibility.

[Wickerman]

And of course, if Druitt was murdered, What will remain correct of Macnaghten's given informations about Druitt ?!

NOTHING, Nil, Zero.

Are those the sort of informations that man can rely upon?!



The Baron

Because Mac. wouldn't know it was murder. This is only a modern theory and it may be wrong.

[The Baron]

So was the drown doctor, an old theory, no doctor who committed suicide right after the Kelly murder was found.

Its all what the police had at the time, theories.

There was no proof against anyone.


The Baron

[Wickerman]

So was the drown doctor, an old theory, no doctor who committed suicide right after the Kelly murder was found.

Its all what the police had at the time, theories.

There was no proof against anyone.


The Baron

I've spent hours going over newspapers looking for a suicide in the Thames of a doctor or a medical student sometime after 9th Nov. 1888.
What is apparent is suicides did not normally reach the national papers. They were always a local news story, and even when people threw themselves in the Thames we find no account in the London press. I found two "suicide in the Thames" stories in the county papers, one in a Nottingham paper, another in a Yorkshire paper.
Druitt's suicide was only reported in the Dorset papers, Richmond, Acton & Chiswick, etc., it made make one London paper - the Echo.
So, it isn't just a case of looking in the London papers, we have to look in all the county papers and the local town and city papers.
It could take some time.

So, it isn't true to say there wasn't any, but it is true to say that none have been found.
That said, as I posted before. Suicides were so common (roughly 6 per week in London), they didn't always make the news.

[Herlock Sholmes]

And of course, if Druitt was murdered, What will remain correct of Macnaghten's given informations about Druitt ?!

NOTHING, Nil, Zero.

Are those the sort of informations that man can rely upon?!



The Baron

Yet another nonsensical post. As Wickerman has pointed out, if it was a murder that was made to look like a suicide (and it did look like a suicide) then Macnaghten, like everyone else, would have seen it as a suicide. And so your “””nothing, nil, zero””’ comment is worthy precisely “””nothing, nil, zero.”””

[The Baron]

So, it isn't true to say there wasn't any, but it is true to say that none have been found.
That said, as I posted before. Suicides were so common (roughly 6 per week in London), they didn't always make the news.

And thats what I said Jon, no doctor was found.

Equally too, it is not true to say that the drown doctor was Druitt!



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

And thats what I said Jon, no doctor was found.

Equally too, it is not true to say that the drown doctor was Druitt!



The Baron

Desperate!

[Herlock Sholmes]

Agreed, though it is not certain which lodgings were mentioned. The chambers at Kings Bench Walk had living accomodation at the top floors, still do today if I'm not mistaken.

I think it was David Andersen who suggested that if Montie was dismissed from the school, and as Friday 30th Nov. was the end of the school term, then he might have been expected to have his things removed, as presumably the school would be closing for christmas.

The third suggestion comes from the idea that Montie had some mental problems, Andersen suggested he might have voluntarily (perhaps with some urging from William?) have taken a room at the Manor House with the Tukes, both as a place to stay & to get some treatment.
The Tukes could keep Montie's mental problems quiet being family friends, but maybe they didn't want to be party to harbouring a suspected murderer?
Apparently, the Tukes had a separate register for voluntary patients, sadly it has not survived.

So, how many of these suggestions are true? - are we looking at 9 Kings Bench Walk, or 9 Elliot Place, or a room at the Manor House - which "room" did the press article refer to?



Yes, who buy's a return ticket if they intend to kill themselves before they use it?
In my view, on Dec. 1st, when he bought the ticket he had no intention of suicide - so what changed?
And, of course there's the question, why carry valuables on him when he still had a room somewhere, where he left the note?
I don't normally theorize about Montie being murdered, but I always keep it at the back of my mind as a possibility.

This is from Wiki Wick (sorry I can never resist it)

4 King's Bench Walk has been home to various sets of barristers over the years. Two chambers are now situated in the building; downstairs is Whitestone Chambers headed by Lawrence Power,^[15] while upstairs is 4KBW Chambers headed by Timothy Raggatt QC.^[16] In addition there is a private residence on the top floor.

[Herlock Sholmes]

In my view, on Dec. 1st, when he bought the ticket he had no intention of suicide - so what changed?
And, of course there's the question, why carry valuables on him when he still had a room somewhere, where he left the note?
I don't normally theorize about Montie being murdered, but I always keep it at the back of my mind as a possibility.

I know what you mean. In the past I’ve wondered if William had come to London earlier and Monty had confessed. William threatens to turn him in so Monty kills himself. Pure speculation of course. I’ve also always wondered about why William was supposedly told of Monty’s disappearance by an unnamed friend? If William had been contacted by post surely it wouldn’t have been an anonymous letter? If we say that it just means that the friend was unnamed at the Inquest (which is possible) I just wonder why he wasn’t asked specifically who told him about Monty as there’ would have been no obvious reason to keep that person’s name out of it?

[Wickerman]

And thats what I said Jon, no doctor was found.

And on that note.....why keep doctor's suicide a secret?



In all fairness, the accusation was disputed in the following edition of Lloyds by Mr Hammond (Clerk of Coroner Dr. Macdonald).
However, at the end of Mr Hammond's explanation Lloyds writes: "....the fact remains that the inquest was kept secret from our reporter".
Public notifications were only required to be posted at the station on a police notice board, and on a notice board at the Coroner's Office. Not, one might assume, in the press.

Equally too, it is not true to say that the drown doctor was Druitt!

Agreed, however as only the first press reports of the suicide (Thames Valley Times 2 Jan.), meaning those printed before the inquest, suggested an age of 41, it has been assumed this may have come from PC Moulson's own police report.
If this is true (his report no longer exists), then the suggestion the body looked like? a local doctor may have also been concluded by Moulson on that report.
All it would take is for someone, either Winslade or the PC himself to say, "this looks like that doctor ______ who lives at the end of town". The body was badly decomposed.
The solution to this problem may be just as innocent as that.

[Phil Carter]

Agreed, though it is not certain which lodgings were mentioned. The chambers at Kings Bench Walk had living accomodation at the top floors, still do today if I'm not mistaken.

I think it was David Andersen who suggested that if Montie was dismissed from the school, and as Friday 30th Nov. was the end of the school term, then he might have been expected to have his things removed, as presumably the school would be closing for christmas.

The third suggestion comes from the idea that Montie had some mental problems, Andersen suggested he might have voluntarily (perhaps with some urging from William?) have taken a room at the Manor House with the Tukes, both as a place to stay & to get some treatment.
The Tukes could keep Montie's mental problems quiet being family friends, but maybe they didn't want to be party to harbouring a suspected murderer?
Apparently, the Tukes had a separate register for voluntary patients, sadly it has not survived.

So, how many of these suggestions are true? - are we looking at 9 Kings Bench Walk, or 9 Elliot Place, or a room at the Manor House - which "room" did the press article refer to?



Yes, who buy's a return ticket if they intend to kill themselves before they use it?
In my view, on Dec. 1st, when he bought the ticket he had no intention of suicide - so what changed?
And, of course there's the question, why carry valuables on him when he still had a room somewhere, where he left the note?
I don't normally theorize about Montie being murdered, but I always keep it at the back of my mind as a possibility.

Hello Jon and Herlock,

Thank you for your replies. Appreciated.

I have to go back to the suicide point, and the jumping off a bridge, please excuse me.

OK. The Coroner said it was suicide. Let's take that as is, for now. Suicide by drowning.

There are only 3 ways Druitt can have committed suicide by drowning himself.
1) He loaded the stones from the bank, walked back up to the bridge, and jumped off. (Getting hold of heavy stones is most logical from down by the river)
2) He loaded the stones from the riverbank, and waded into the water, drowning when no longer in standing depth.
3) He loads up the stones from the riverbank, gets into a rowing boat, rows out into the middle of the river, and jumps in from the boat.

Right. First of all, sadly, we must conclude Druitt cannot swim. Or at best, a poor swimmer. We do not know.
He is, however, a fairly fit athlete. This we do know, re fairly regular games of cricket.

Next, we must take into consideration the water current. And for that matter, undercurrents. A poor swimmer will always struggle in the currents of the Thames, however, we do not know the depth of the water into which he entered. This is important, for we know not if it was high nor low tide. As shown previously, it ranges from deep 10ft or more, to 18 inches. That's important considering HOW he killed himself.

We are also totally unaware of the weather on the day/evening/night of his death. Likely towards freezing. So the water is cold, and will kill a person in a short time even if they stayed afloat in the water. Floating however, is unlikely due to the extra weight in his pockets.

In addition, we do not know if he was sober at the time of his suicide attempt. However, he must have been relatively aware of what he was doing, in order to go and get the stones and return to the bridge.


Conclusions.

It is highly unlikely Druitt waded into the water himself to commit suicide. This would take more time than jumping in, and from a practical standpoint, far more difficult to do. It may also attract attention because if how long it would actually take to get to a suitable depth. Suicide by this method is highly unlikely.

It is also highly unlikely he used a rowing boat to get to the middle of the river. He would have to steal the boat, unnoticed. He would also need to be able to row, and know how to row with or against the steam or currents. Additionally, no empty boat was reported found washed up anywhere. An empty boat floating along on the river is noticeable, even at night.

So we are left with the scenario of him jumping from the bridge. Nobody reported having seen him picking up heavy stones from the bank. Nobody saw a person standing for any length of time, seconds or minutes, on the bridge. Nobody saw him climb onto the bridge wall, and nobody saw him jump.
Nobody heard a noise eminating from a person entering the water from that height, and nobody heard a splash. Nobody saw any person enter the water at all.
However, when considering suicide, this seems to be the logical choice when attempting to drown himself.

Next. The murder scenario.

Two conceivable ways to drown a person.

1) load the man's pockets with heavy stones and push him off the bridge.

2) Fill his pockets with heavy stones, and row Druitt out to the middle of the river in a boat, and tip him into the water quietly. Likely this would take 2 men.
It would also mean that Druitt was either drugged or unconscious.

Scenario 1 is impracticle in the least, due to time and attention caused. It can quickly be dismissed for obvious reasons.

Scenario 2 is more likely. There are positives vis a vis suicide, but also negatives. However, it could be done with very little noise.

One of the big things against, us the fact he was still carrying a large amount of money. (not least). Also the fact that he had with him a so called suicide note upon him.
Conversely, the return train ticket goes the against suicide theory, as well as the fact that the murderers may not have gone through his pockets ar all to empty them, just fill them up with large stones.

In the aftermath, all sort of problems occur due to the high and low tides.. And as to why it took a month for the dead body to be found, as it would have become bloated quite quickly, then we have his brother committing perjury in his comments. Which makes a suspicious situation. Amongst much else.

This death could easily have been made to look like suicide. If so, it certainly convinced the Coroner.

And yes Herlock, I'm being neutral. I'm not going to overlook possibilities just incase it harms Druitt's candidacy fir being a Murderer in some way.
Druitt himself has already done that... Why?

Because at no time, on any occasion, was he known to have been violent in any way, to males nor females.
After all, that one thin string us what Kosminski its pull when referring to one verbal threat of anger against his sister. Druitt has no such string attached to his name. What's good for the goose... Etc etc.



Phil