Druitt a doctor?

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

But a year's study as a surgeon comes after two years of med school.

But did it 1870's when we were not that far removed from "apprenticeships" in medicine? I'm not sure.

Maybe dissection, maybe as a doctor, maybe previous murders not associated with him. But this guy definitely had cut into humans before his "first" victim.

Sorry but Huh? he may have gained experience through previous murders, but had definitely cut into humans before his first victim. Are you suggesting that he killed before the C5, if so I'm inclined to agree, or are you saying that he must have dissection experience before he killed anyone? In which case I disagree.

He could also have gained experience on animals. It seems that one family he was close to were pig farmers. One real problem is we don't know enough about any of these people to say with certainty what experience they did or did not have.

[GUT]

In 1745 the surgeons broke away from the barbers to form the Company of Surgeons. In 1800 the Company was granted a Royal Charter to become the Royal College of Surgeons in London.

So it was only in 1745 that surgeons separated from barbers, gee I'd hate to have needed surgery in those days.

In 1883 Robert Lawson Tait removed the fallopian tube of a woman suffering an ectopic pregnancy saving her life.

The first time such an operation is recorded, makes you wonder if even an experienced surgeon could do what Jack did in a rush and in the dark. Though all surgery was done as quickly as possible because of lack of effective anesthetic experience.

[Jonathan H]

In his book 'Days of My Years' (1914) Sir Melville Macnaghten makes no claim that [the un-named] Druitt was a doctor, or middle-aged.

Furthermore he specifically denies that Druitt had ever been 'detained' in madhouse, or that he was a Ripper suspect in 1888--not until 'some years after'--or that he killed himself immediately after the Kelly atrocity.

This was the only document this police chief produced for public consumption about the Whitechapel crimes with his own distinguished name attached, and he did not repeat the notion that the Ripper was a medical man with 'anatomical knowledge'.

In his 1913 retirement press conference Macnaghten also did not claim that the un-named Druitt was a doctor. Just that he alone possessed the 'secret information' which, by implication, he had shared with nobody at the Yard and, consequently, the Druitt tale would exit with him.

In the document he filed with Scotland Yard, presumably in 1894, Sir Melville claimed that M. J. Druitt may or may not have been a doctor but had definitely gained sexual pleasure from ultra-violence--or at least so it was 'believed' by the deceased's own family.

True Macnaghten disseminated the draft or rewrite of his report to the public from 1898 via reliable cronies but this is clearly disinformation.

For example, Macnaghten also claimed, through Sims, that the English, doctor suspect had been sectioned into a madhouse as a voluntary patient, wherein he had been diagnosed as a maniac who wanted to savage harlots.

That critical, incriminating detail is in neither version of his 'memo'.

For another example, Macnaghten has Ostrog also as a doctor when he kept tabs on this minor Ripper suspect and habitual thief/con man--'Mac' was there at Eton when the Russian stole some valuables--and thus knew the latter was no more a real physician than Druitt.

Much of the above is now confirmed by a recently discovered 1905 source 'The True History of Jack the Ripper' by Guy Logan.

[GUT]

G'Day Jonathan

I thought that the question was if he had, or could have had the knowledge to carry out the "surgery" that the victims underwent.

[Jonathan H]

Of course, as no 'surgical skill' was involved a barrister-teacher-cricketer could do it easily.

M.P. Farquharson fictionalized Druitt, but not as doctor.

To muse that Montague went, briefly, to medical school is to miss the point.

For Late Victorians and Edwardians he was turned into Henry Jekyll: middle-aged, no patients, no family, with concerned friends, a tormented suicide.

That's the point.

Check out the new source.

[GUT]

G'Day Jonathan

Sorry for being ignorant yet again, but what new source do you refer to?

[Jonathan H]

It is in the post you criticized for being off-topic.

At the end.

[GUT]

Sorry Jonathan

I was certainly not meaning to criticize you or anyone else as being off thread I was explaining [or trying to] why I had taken the tack that I had in the thread and that I had not considered the issues that you raised in this context.

I guess because I was aware, and sometimes am surprised that others don't seem to be, of the things raised by you.

I also often have a very bad habit of assuming that because something appears obvious to me that it should be to others. And by that I mean issues like those you raised in your post.

My question about the source was because I thought it might be something I didn't know about and wasn't sure just which document you were referencing.

I am sorry if I offended you, I respect your views greatly.

[Jonathan H]

No need to apologize.

I was off-topic. But that is because it was a dead end.

Druitt was not a doctor or a medical student.

If he had been the latter, then Macnaghten would not have made him into a mad physician because it would have been too close to posthumously exposing him, eg. exposing his respectable relations.

Guy Logan's 'The True History of Jack the Ripper' 1905 published last year delighted my friends who saw it, as I do, as confirmation of much for what I had been arguing for some years.

To take but one example I had argued that Druitt likely left word with both his school and sporting association that he was going abroad, when actually he went off to drown himself (and took steps hoping his body would never be found).

I won't bore you by cataloging the ugly abuse this theory predictably triggered in some quarters.

Anyhow, the Logan opus is a fictionalized account of Druitt obviously influenced by Macnaghten and Sims.

Logan's Druitt figure, named Mortemer Slade, tells his East End landlady that he has 'business abroad', as he actually begins his final odyssey to the Thames.

[GUT]

G'Day Jonathan

No doubt in my mind that he is likely to have told the Cricket and Hockey club he was gong abroad.

If he told the same thing to the school though I would have thought William would have mentioned it at the inquest, but William seems to have trouble that day telling the truth anyway.

[Jonathan H]

There is a potential glimpse into William knowing about the 'gone abroad' cover, if the reporter has his inquest testimony correct--and he may not--that the late date of 'Dec 30th' refers either to Montie's dismissal (ergo no suicide note had been found as yet, or looked for) or it refers to the date the older brother arrived at the school, ergo William knew he was AWOL but assumed, for several weeks, he had fled overseas, then found out, or was briefed regarding the evidence that Montie was a homicidal maniac and subsequently high-tailed it to the school only the day before the body washed up.

The bottom line is that according to the primary sources, that William Druitt's agenda was one of containment--understandable from his point of view. Montague was dead and could never be brought to trial, so William with-held from the inquiry the ghastly truth he had learned; that his self-destroyed brother was the Ripper.

Could he have been mistaken? Yes he could have been.

But. Is. That. Likely?

That Macnaghten knew about this episode is shown by what Sims wrote (1902, 1903, 1907) and in the last para of Chapter IV of the former's memoir, as he has the killer frequently 'absented'.

Both upper class gents-pals have semi-fictionalized the tale, in Mac's case with the false implication that the un-named Druitt lived with his family (though he is careful not to actually use this word) leaving the reader with the impression that the chief posthumously consulted with the 'Simon Pure' fiend's nearest and dearest about the 'certain facts' which led to a 'conclusion'.

Take a tip from me, GUT. Here you can have any suspect you like--except Druitt. Here all the police sources might be reliable--except Macnaghten.

[Errata]

G'Day Errata



But did it 1870's when we were not that far removed from "apprenticeships" in medicine? I'm not sure.

Yeah. Med school from at least 1860s onwards is very similar to what we have today, except that 3rd and 4th years did what residents do today. Basically we have added on another four years of practical experience before licensing. And surgeons have always required extra training other disciplines don't get. Even during the American Civil War there were problems because surgeons were not being trained up fast enough to significantly add to the medical corps. Eventually all medical care not requiring surgery was put into the hands of nurses, and doctors only saw surgical or unusual cases. Even back then the training was a long enough process that it could not be shortened in order to help the war effort. Though god knows they tried.

Sorry but Huh? he may have gained experience through previous murders, but had definitely cut into humans before his first victim. Are you suggesting that he killed before the C5, if so I'm inclined to agree, or are you saying that he must have dissection experience before he killed anyone? In which case I disagree.

He could also have gained experience on animals. It seems that one family he was close to were pig farmers. One real problem is we don't know enough about any of these people to say with certainty what experience they did or did not have.

No he didn't need dissection experience. He needed to have purposefully cut into human before. Dissection is one way to get there, but there are other ways. Including murder.

Practicing on animals would certainly shorten the learning curve, but his first victim would still be a mess. It's about understanding the different textures of flesh, and the relative depths of each. Knowing the feeling of cutting skin, fat, muscle, organ etc. a person can get from animals. Knowing the depth and proportion of each layer requires human. And using a scalpel is one thing, where you can feel everything. Using a knife is quite another. It is hard to accidentally punch through to organ or bone using surgical techniques with a scalpel. Not impossible, I've certainly do it to myself a few times, but not easy. With a dagger (and I think we are talking about a dagger, at least for the abdomen) it is hard NOT to punch through and make a hash of organs. Given the amount of pressure he was putting to bear on the abdomen, there should be at least one body out there where he shredded the intestines, or hit bone. If it was a cadaver, that would explain why no other victim was assigned to him. If it was a living person, then there is another body out there that belongs to this killer.

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

Yeah. Med school from at least 1860s onwards is very similar to what we have today, except that 3rd and 4th years did what residents do today.

Not so in the UK I'm afraid, one of my ancestors became a Naval Surgeon and indeed for a short period surgeon general of New Zealand in born in 1840's no University at all.

[pinkmoon]

Could Druitts father have used his contacts to allow his son to work along side a doctor or doctors just to see if he wanted to pursue a career in medicine?

[GUT]

G'Day Pinkmoon

Even more to the point why wouldn't he have allowed MJD to work alongside him for the exact same reason? And on that line most Postmortems on patents that died during surgery were conducted by the Dr who performed the surgery, even more so in areas with only one or two surgeons, why would anyone think I strange if his father let Montie try his hand at a bit of cutting on someone he couldn't hurt. IF and to my mind it is a huge IF, he needed any type of surgical skill.