Druitt a doctor?

[pinkmoon]

If Druitt had considerd a career in medicine is it not possible that he might have assisted a doctor or doctors to gain an insight to this profession.I know Howells and skinner in their book"the ripper legacy" tried to find if he enrolled at medical school.

[Errata]

If Druitt had considerd a career in medicine is it not possible that he might have assisted a doctor or doctors to gain an insight to this profession.I know Howells and skinner in their book"the ripper legacy" tried to find if he enrolled at medical school.

I know that today shadowing is a requirement for entry into med school. Basically it serves to ensure that if you vomit at the sight of blood, you find that out before med school, and not two years in.

He could not have assisted doctors then as he was, but medical students were somewhat free floating between hospitals and attending physicians. They also had "uniforms" so to speak. It would be ridiculously easy for a person with some means to dress like a med student and insert himself into any number of procedures. And it did happen, because I know at least two reporters did it in order to do stories on the quality of treatment in poor hospitals. One story was on Fleet I think, and the other a Catholic charity hospital whose name I have long since forgotten. If you were caught you got thrown out, but I don't think the cops would be called unless you committed some other crime, like murder, assault, or theft.

[pinkmoon]

I know that today shadowing is a requirement for entry into med school. Basically it serves to ensure that if you vomit at the sight of blood, you find that out before med school, and not two years in.

He could not have assisted doctors then as he was, but medical students were somewhat free floating between hospitals and attending physicians. They also had "uniforms" so to speak. It would be ridiculously easy for a person with some means to dress like a med student and insert himself into any number of procedures. And it did happen, because I know at least two reporters did it in order to do stories on the quality of treatment in poor hospitals. One story was on Fleet I think, and the other a Catholic charity hospital whose name I have long since forgotten. If you were caught you got thrown out, but I don't think the cops would be called unless you committed some other crime, like murder, assault, or theft.

Hi Errata,thanks for reply it's just when I was refreshing my memory about Druitt there seems to be a gap between 1880 and 1881 where I know some people including Mr rumbelow think he might have studied something rather than law.

[GUT]

G'Day all

It also pays to remember that he has a family history of [I think from memory] something like 300 years of Doctors. I think that it would be strange if he didn't have time "shadowing" doctors, especially when we remember that pre WW II most Drs practiced from their residence.

But as said earlier there is gap between finishing Uni and Starting teaching of a year, I also seem to remember that he took a year longer than normal to finish Uni, is that because he started one course and then transferred to another?

[Lechmere]

Maybe he trained as a surgeon, but this information just disappeared from his record through bad luck.

[GUT]

G'Day Lechmere

Maybe he trained as a surgeon, but this information just disappeared from his record through bad luck.

It wouldn't be the first information to disappear.

[GUT]

I think I'll just call you Cross from now on it's easier to spell..... hmmm "I wonder"

[pinkmoon]

Hi gut,he's always been referred to by the police as a doctor and not a barrister or school teacher why?The police must have done some very basic checks when his name came to their attention.

[Lechmere]

How many policemen mentioned Druitt?
Macnaghten is hardly a reliable source.

[GUT]

G'Day Pinkmoon

That I have no idea on.

I presume when you say:

he's always been referred to by the police as a doctor

You mean by MM and so forth not at the time of his death itself.

This confusion may also go to explain Littlechild's "I've never heard of a Dr D, only Dr T" because he hadn't heard of Dr Druitt, but may have been aware of MJD as a barrister.

Now we could speculate that there was an attempt to disguise the truth about him to protect the Identity, and while that may hold true for the good blabbermouth MP I am yet to be convinced re MacNaghten, I think it more likely that he simply got confused when writing MM and his book either my the MP's comments or because of the long family history.

I also wouldn't rule out that if Mac had "private information" he was told something like:

"Montague was from a family of Doctors and for some time we were worried about his mental state and the he confessed to his cousin that he was JtR Pure speculation of course, but it would explain a lot.

[Errata]

Maybe he trained as a surgeon, but this information just disappeared from his record through bad luck.

No way. Theres a missing year, and one year in med school does not get him near patients, much less put a knife in his hands. Two years maybe, because med students did practice back then (like today's residents) but not first years. Plus surgeon was the only specialty anyone wanted. And competition to get attached to a surgeon or even observe was pretty intense. As a legacy he would have been given precedence, assuming of course it wasn't a surgeon who was in competition with his dad or brother or something, in which case he would be specifically excluded.

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

Not sure what you mean about not getting near patients till 2nd year and is it really relevant to any knowledge he may or may not have had in relation to anatomy?

Also when you say

As a legacy he would have been given precedence,

Do you mean as the son etc of Drs he would have got in with a surgeon easier? If so I would definitely agree.

[Errata]

G'Day Errata

Not sure what you mean about not getting near patients till 2nd year and is it really relevant to any knowledge he may or may not have had in relation to anatomy?

Also when you say



Do you mean as the son etc of Drs he would have got in with a surgeon easier? If so I would definitely agree.

If the question is "does a year in med school give someone the requisite anatomical knowledge" then the answer is yes. If the question is "does a year in med school give someone the requisite experience to cut into a human?" then the answer is no.

But Lechmere brought up the idea that in this missing time frame he may have trained as a surgeon. And the answer to that is no. Not in a year.

On the other hand, training in biology or pathology required a lot less oversight and education. And the best bet of all is to work for an undertaker. Undertakers cut open bodies, you see all the organs in situ, and there was no training other than learning on the job. A person could easily get enough practical knowledge and experience within six months. A whole year would just be gravy.

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

But Lechmere brought up the idea that in this missing time frame he may have trained as a surgeon. And the answer to that is no. Not in a year.

I follow, but I was taking Lechmere's question to be could he have done a years study as a surgeon [without completing his training], so that's why we seemed to come to opposite conclusions.

If the question is "does a year in med school give someone the requisite anatomical knowledge" then the answer is yes. If the question is "does a year in med school give someone the requisite experience to cut into a human?" then the answer is no.

But it does give you the requisite experience to cut into a human, if you don't plan to put them together again [ie if your like all the King's horses and all the King's men].

On the other hand, training in biology or pathology required a lot less oversight and education. And the best bet of all is to work for an undertaker. Undertakers cut open bodies, you see all the organs in situ, and there was no training other than learning on the job. A person could easily get enough practical knowledge and experience within six months. A whole year would just be gravy.

And on that we could not be more in agreement.

I for one don't think he would need a lot of exposure to gain the knowledge to do what dear Jacky did and indeed suspect that just growing up in a family of medicos may well have been enough "experience".

[Errata]

[QUOTE]

G'Day Errata

I follow, but I was taking Lechmere's question to be could he have done a years study as a surgeon [without completing his training], so that's why we seemed to come to opposite conclusions.

But a year's study as a surgeon comes after two years of med school. So now you are looking at three years worth of work, and only one year of unaccounted for time. So a year gets you first year medicine, which is gross anatomy. Not surgery.

But it does give you the requisite experience to cut into a human, if you don't plan to put them together again [ie if your like all the King's horses and all the King's men].

It does, but not in this killers case. For example, do you know how hard to push down on a knife in order to open an abdomen without shredding organs and mesenteries? I don't. I know how much pressure cuts skin, but not how much gets through the abdomen, and certainly not how much is too much. If a guy wants his victims to look like freak victims of a lawnmower attack, knowledge is all you need. But this guy had experience.

And on that we could not be more in agreement.

I for one don't think he would need a lot of exposure to gain the knowledge to do what dear Jacky did and indeed suspect that just growing up in a family of medicos may well have been enough "experience".

Well, I too come from a family of doctors and nurses. In fact my sister and I are the first members of the family who are not scientists or doctors since like, the 1700s (except for the Yiddish theater twig on a branch of the family tree that I take after). My dad is an ob/gyn, so my knowledge of reproduction exceeded every sex ed and anatomy teacher I ever had, and my own freak show of a bad genes has ensured that I know a lot about the body. A lot. Could I have done these murders? Absolutely. Could I have done them as cleanly? Not until the third or fourth victim. I'm a fast learner, but there's still a curve. Knowledge is not experience. Knowledge tells me how to get to the uterus. Experience lets me take it out without chopping the colon into tiny pieces. Mutilation, surgery, either one requires tactile memory in order to do it right. Books tell them where to cut, sense memory tells them how far to push in the blade. This guy had the tactile memory. He'd done it before. Not just studied it or been exposed to it, actually done it. Maybe dissection, maybe as a doctor, maybe previous murders not associated with him. But this guy definitely had cut into humans before his "first" victim.