Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Druitt.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    The arguments used to dismiss Druitt aren’t really worthy of discussion as they are more than a little embarrassing and one dimensional. Just desperate attempts to manufacture a reason to dismiss him out of thin air by claiming to know what we don’t. There’s no real evidence against any suspect and yet this argument seems only to get applied to Druitt. I wonder why? Where are the threads where people rant against Mann or Bachert or Gull or Sickert or Hardiman or Endacott or any number of other joke suspects? Where are the threads of posters angrily dismissing Kelly or Chapman or Thompson? They don’t exist these days. Mention Druitt though and they all come out of the woodwork with the same tired old tirades. Constructive discussion on this subject is always impossible because Druitt and Macnaghten are red rags.

    That Kosminski and Druitt were mentioned by senior police officers must raise them onto any lists unless people aren’t really interested in the case in an unbiased way and their whole purpose is simply to dismiss one suspect over all others. If someone seeks to dismiss Druitt out of hand then they are hopelessly biased. There is no other explanation. I’m bored of listening to it. The subject as a whole suffers.

    If we look at each suspect in regard to evidence, looking at various criteria, then one suspect is head and shoulders above the rest……William Henry Bury. I can say this because I’m not biased. I don’t bend over backwards to support or dismiss any suspects. There are many others on here who are also unbiased and keep an open mind. Many who believe Druitt a poor suspect but they don’t foam at the mouth about him and lose all sense of proportion. Sadly there are some who appear to think that they know some things as a fact which the rest of us don’t. Their assumptions become facts in their own minds. There’s much that we don’t know and if we don’t know something which shouldn’t try and parachute in an opinion disguised as an proven answer.

    We don’t know what Macnaghten’s information was. That’s it. There should be no “yes but it must have been a lie,” or “yes but it must have been wrong.” No one knows. But we do know that he called him a likely suspect. This is enough in a case riddled with non-suspects like Mann and ridiculous ones like Gull. If some people aren’t interested in Druitt that’s perfectly fine but they shouldn’t stoop to making things up just to try and dismiss him. It won’t work.
    Regards

    Sir Herlock Sholmes.

    “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

      Abberline had retired by then so his opinion is close to worthless.

      Your “probably nothing more than rumour and opinion,” is beyond weak. You can’t know that, it’s just an unfounded assumption.

      That some considered Mackenzie and Coles is also beyond weak. Almost no one today accepts Coles as a victim and only a few believe Mackenzie to have been. Either way we can’t know so we can’t dismiss someone on an unknown. That’s if we’re being fair of course.

      To dismiss the MM on a couple of trivial errors is a tool of convenience.

      That Macnaghten simply picked Druitt out of thin air is laughable.
      Abberline didn't retire until 1892, 2 years before MM even joined the Met, why was the info not produced before 1894

      No one is suggesting MM picked Druitt out of thin air, but in the absence of a provable source for his "private information" it has to be looked upon as hearsay and not even accurate hearsay. If it had come from the family there would not have been the glaring errors that we see

      The position of MM was such that he had full access to all the files and information on the case, yet the trivial errors you refer to are not so trivial in assessing the validity of his private information and the accuracy of the Memo.

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

        Hi Fishy,

        I'm not sure that I would refer to myself as a "Druitt Supporter", but I do believe that his inclusion in the MM and the time of his death etc do warrant him remaining on the list.

        I'm aware of the issues with the MM, but I'm inclined to agree with Herlock that Druitt seems such a weird, incongruous choice to include, that it makes me wonder about the content of the "private information".

        Do I think he was the Ripper?

        Nope!

        I doubt it was any of the named suspects, personally.
        Be careful Ms D, by simply being unbiased you are in danger of being branded. And the phrase ‘Druitt Supporter,” says it all doesn’t it? It’s like a competition. As if some of us are sitting here in ‘Montague John Druitt for JTR’ t-shirts whilst waiving ‘I love Monty’ flags. It’s all ‘my suspect is better than your suspect because I’m cleverer than you.’

        Sadly, I can’t see things changing. I’m getting more and more bored with the whole subject because of it. And I’m guessing that I’m not alone.
        Regards

        Sir Herlock Sholmes.

        “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

          Be careful Ms D, by simply being unbiased you are in danger of being branded. And the phrase ‘Druitt Supporter,” says it all doesn’t it? It’s like a competition. As if some of us are sitting here in ‘Montague John Druitt for JTR’ t-shirts whilst waiving ‘I love Monty’ flags. It’s all ‘my suspect is better than your suspect because I’m cleverer than you.’

          Sadly, I can’t see things changing. I’m getting more and more bored with the whole subject because of it. And I’m guessing that I’m not alone.
          Well yeah, there does seem to be a lot of going round in circles in relation to Druitt's candidacy, but it's largely the same with other suspects too.

          The relatively recent discovery of the cricket schedules injected a bit of new life into the debate though, and it gave me hope that there may be more information out there still to be uncovered.

          Ultimately it turned out not to be the death knell for Monty's candidacy, but it was still a significant find and it kept the suspectology ennui at bay for a while!

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
            And for the poster who mentioned Tabram….one of the side results of the cricket research that was done recently is that we now know that Druitt didn’t have an alibi for Tabram either. He has no alibi for any of the murders.
            Please can you remind me, Herlock?

            I recall this being discussed, but can't remember the outcome.

            Was it confirmed to be Monty's relation (also a cricketing MJ Druitt) who was playing when Martha was killed?

            My memory is shocking!

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

              Please can you remind me, Herlock?

              I recall this being discussed, but can't remember the outcome.

              Was it confirmed to be Monty's relation (also a cricketing MJ Druitt) who was playing when Martha was killed?

              My memory is shocking!
              Mine too Ms D. I didn’t think the issue about Monty’s relation was connected to the date of the Tabram murder though? Perhaps I'm wrong. Something tells me that it might have been Roger Palmer who found the relevant detail so I’ll have to ask him to avoid having to read through the thread over on JTRForums again.
              Regards

              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                Mine too Ms D. I didn’t think the issue about Monty’s relation was connected to the date of the Tabram murder though? Perhaps I'm wrong. Something tells me that it might have been Roger Palmer who found the relevant detail so I’ll have to ask him to avoid having to read through the thread over on JTRForums again.
                Thanks Herlock!

                I'll have a nosey about for it on here too as I do recall it being discussed but have completely forgotten the details....

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Ms Diddles View Post

                  Thanks Herlock!

                  I'll have a nosey about for it on here too as I do recall it being discussed but have completely forgotten the details....
                  I’ve pm’ed Roger.
                  Regards

                  Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                  “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    In response to # 38:

                    The source for Druitt's hockey playing is the Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, 9 March 1886.

                    Readers will note that I did not make that up.


                    To describe the point I made about Druitt's height as a fast bowler as 'not good enough' is obviously mistaken.

                    'most of the top quality fast bowlers that you see in cricket are over 6 feet tall.'

                    If you're wondering how tall you need to be in order to become a successful fast bowler - this post will reveal all!


                    The improbability of Druitt's being of only medium height is dismissed, as is the long list of improbabilities.


                    It is obviously not a valid point to allege that I am 'assuming that [I] must be correct'.

                    The same spurious put-down could be made about anyone who expresses a view.

                    Elamarna wrote something very similar about me soon after I started posting comments - something about my thinking that I must be right.

                    Show me someone who thinks he must be wrong!


                    Describing my argument that the case against Druitt is farfetched as unreasonable is itself unreasonable, as the only argument against him that is ever produced is that Macnaghten had private information - for which there is no evidence - and that no-one can prove that Druitt did not eviscerate women.


                    It smacks of hypocrisy to claim about yourself that you 'view the situation fairly and without bias' while at the same time alleging that I am 'assuming that [I] must be correct'.​


                    Accusing me of invention yet again is unfounded and inappropriate.


                    I wrote:

                    'It should be abundantly clear to anyone looking at Druitt's activities that he spent his spare time playing sports - not stalking prostitutes'.

                    To describe my comment as 'not worthy of a response' is obviously not appropriate.


                    Druitt is not a serious suspect.

                    Last edited by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1; 07-03-2023, 07:16 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                      I’ve pm’ed Roger.
                      Thanks Herlock!

                      I've had a quick whistle-stop tour of the old cricket schedule thread and can see lot's of references to the other sporting Druitt's (Melville and Mayo), but I can't see anything specific relating to August 7th.

                      Perhaps Roger will remember something more definite!

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                        And for the poster who mentioned Tabram….one of the side results of the cricket research that was done recently is that we now know that Druitt didn’t have an alibi for Tabram either. He has no alibi for any of the murders.

                        You are obviously wrong about that.

                        We do not know that Druitt 'didn’t have an alibi for Tabram['s murder]'.

                        We do not know that he did have an alibi for Tabram's murder.

                        You cannot possibly know what you claim to know because you do not have enough information to make that statement.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                          There’s no real evidence against any suspect and yet this argument seems only to get applied to Druitt. I wonder why? Where are the threads where people rant against Mann or Bachert or Gull or Sickert or Hardiman or Endacott or any number of other joke suspects?


                          Everyone knows that I have argued just as strongly against Sickert being a suspect as I have against Druitt being a suspect.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Hi Herlock.

                            Fortunately, I'm at my desk and can give you an immediate reply. The suggestion that Druitt had an alibi for the Tabram murder came from author D.J. Leighton.


                            Montague Druitt: Portrait of a Contender, by D, J. Leighton, p, 110.

                            "On 3 and 4 August he played for the Gentleman of Bournemouth against the Parsees, a visiting Indian touring side. A couple of days later he played for the Gentleman of Dorset against the same opposition [ie., the Parsees]. The following weekend on 10 and 11 August he turned out for the Gentlemen of Dorset against Bournemouth at the end of the latter's cricket week."

                            The cricket matches on 3/4 August and 10/11 August are documented and MJ Druitt did play in those matches. This much is true; I've seen the scorecards.

                            By contrast, the August 6th match has never been located, and as these matches were widely reported in contemporary newspapers, its absence is conspicous. I found no evidence of it, and neither (I think) did Gary Barnett when we were discussing it.

                            In reality, the Parsees can be seen to be playing in Norfolk on August 7th and in Cambridge on the 8th and 9th. This strongly suggests they had left the area and were traveling on the 6th, which seemingly confirms that no such match was played. It is merely a mistake by Leighton. In another passage, Leighton appears to place MJD in Bournemouth during Cricket Week, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence for this, either. He doesn't give his sources for any of these claims.

                            In short, we currently have no idea where Druitt was on August 6th/7th, the date of the Tabram murder.

                            In fact, we do not know his whereabouts on August 5,6,7,8, or 9th which is a five-day stretch, with Bank Holiday in the middle of it.

                            If you recall, William Druitt claimed that Monty stayed with him 'one night' in October 1888, and there was an express between London and Bournemouth so a person could be a day tripper if they so desired.

                            Now give me your best rendition of 'Day Tripper, Monday Ripper, yeah!' to the tune of the Lennon/McCartney song. (Sorry, no disrespect intended). Cheers.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1 View Post
                              In response to # 38:

                              The source for Druitt's hockey playing is the Bristol Mercury and Daily Post, 9 March 1886.

                              Readers will note that I did not make that up.

                              Imdidnt say that you’d made it up. I said that I couldn’t recall any mention of hockey in Druitt’s biography and I still can’t. You could have posted the actual articles for us to read though. It would be interesting to see how conclusive they are and how they managed to quantify how much of Druitt’s time was taken up playing hockey 2 years after the articles were written.


                              To describe the point I made about Druitt's height as a fast bowler as 'not good enough' is obviously mistaken.

                              'most of the top quality fast bowlers that you see in cricket are over 6 feet tall.'

                              If you're wondering how tall you need to be in order to become a successful fast bowler - this post will reveal all!


                              The improbability of Druitt's being of only medium height is dismissed, as is the long list of improbabilities.

                              Then perhaps you should have read the article before posting it.

                              “There are no strict rules on how tall a fast bowler needs to be in cricket. However, it is rare in the modern game to see an elite professional fast bowler that is shorter than 5ft 10 inches tall. At the amateur levels of the game height is less important, and as a result shorter fast bowlers find it easier to succeed​.”

                              Druitt was an amateur cricketer. You’re trying much too hard here PI and it’s showing.



                              It is obviously not a valid point to allege that I am 'assuming that [I] must be correct'.

                              The same spurious put-down could be made about anyone who expresses a view.

                              Elamarna wrote something very similar about me soon after I started posting comments - something about my thinking that I must be right.

                              Show me someone who thinks he must be wrong!

                              So, as we all know, I’m not alone in this. It’s not just me and Steve. It’s not a case of anyone thinking that they are wrong PI. It’s about accepting that just because we look at a subject, think about it and then arrive at an interpretation it’s doesn’t mean that we should assume that our interpretations are always right. I accept that Druitt possibly wasn’t the ripper. I’ve accepted that Macnaghten could have misjudged the value or implications of the information that he received. I accept the possibility that Druitt might not have returned to London at the time of the Nichols murder. I accept that the graffito might or might not have been written by the killer. All of these are unknowns to us but you post as if you definitively know the answer to these questions. Why can’t you accept possibilities without feeling the need to be right on every single point? I’ve been wrong on facts on here numerous times over the years and have been corrected by various people. I have no problem with that, as those people would tell you. Interpretations though vary from individual to individual. In the absence of certainty we have to accept that doubt and alternative explanations exist.


                              Describing my argument that the case against Druitt is farfetched as unreasonable is itself unreasonable, as the only argument against him that is ever produced is that Macnaghten had private information - for which there is no evidence - and that no-one can prove that Druitt did not eviscerate women.

                              And no one can prove that 99.9% of the named suspects didn’t eviscerate women. Why does Druitt face different, more stringent criteria?

                              ​It smacks of hypocrisy to claim about yourself that you 'view the situation fairly and without bias' while at the same time alleging that I am 'assuming that [I] must be correct'.​

                              Why? I’ve just explained how I accept alternative possibilities. I could list more if you want. I’ll repeat….I’m not stating that Druitt was the ripper. Only that he might have been and that I’m interested in him as a suspect (which, the last time that I checked, isn’t punishable by death) and that I feel that some people are too eager to dismiss him and go to unnecessary lengths to try and do so.


                              Accusing me of invention yet again is unfounded and inappropriate.

                              If you say that Druitt had an alibi I’ll keep telling you that you’re making it up. Ask any researcher who was involved in the research on that thread if the result was that Druitt had an alibi for Nichols? They will all tell you no. None are so-called Druittists. Do you think that they are falsifying their research to keep Druitt’s candidature alive? Or….now calm yourself…..could it be you who are mistaken? Because if you’re saying that you’re correct on this then you are telling Roger Palmer, Gary Barnett (who favours Lechmere), Steve Blomer (who favours Kosminski) Chris Phillips and others that they got their research wrong? Is that what you’re saying PI so that we can be clear?

                              I wrote:

                              'It should be abundantly clear to anyone looking at Druitt's activities that he spent his spare time playing sports - not stalking prostitutes'

                              To describe my comment as 'not worthy of a response' is obviously not appropriate.

                              I was 100% correct. Just because someone had a pastime it doesn’t exonerate them on any level especially any suggestion that they wouldn’t have had time. I really don’t know how you can make such a point in seriousness. Was his every free hour taken up with sport? And if you think so could you please provide evidence of the amount of time that he spent playing plus the amount of time that he spent at his work so that we can calculate his available free time as I’m assuming that you have access to these times to enable you to make the above statement. Because you wouldn’t make random pronouncements without evidence would you?


                              Druitt is not a serious suspect.

                              In your own opinion……you forgot that bit again PI

                              I take Druitt seriously as a suspect. So do some others. Some think he’s a weaker suspect but remain open minded. Some claim to know what can’t possibly be known for some inexplicable reason. To much of an element of competition….too little unbiased curiosity.
                              Regards

                              Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                              “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                                Hi Herlock.

                                Fortunately, I'm at my desk and can give you an immediate reply. The suggestion that Druitt had an alibi for the Tabram murder came from author D.J. Leighton.


                                Montague Druitt: Portrait of a Contender, by D, J. Leighton, p, 110.

                                "On 3 and 4 August he played for the Gentleman of Bournemouth against the Parsees, a visiting Indian touring side. A couple of days later he played for the Gentleman of Dorset against the same opposition [ie., the Parsees]. The following weekend on 10 and 11 August he turned out for the Gentlemen of Dorset against Bournemouth at the end of the latter's cricket week."

                                The cricket matches on 3/4 August and 10/11 August are documented and MJ Druitt did play in those matches. This much is true; I've seen the scorecards.

                                By contrast, the August 6th match has never been located, and as these matches were widely reported in contemporary newspapers, its absence is conspicous. I found no evidence of it, and neither (I think) did Gary Barnett when we were discussing it.

                                In reality, the Parsees can be seen to be playing in Norfolk on August 7th and in Cambridge on the 8th and 9th. This strongly suggests they had left the area and were traveling on the 6th, which seemingly confirms that no such match was played. It is merely a mistake by Leighton. In another passage, Leighton appears to place MJD in Bournemouth during Cricket Week, but there doesn't appear to be any evidence for this, either. He doesn't give his sources for any of these claims.

                                In short, we currently have no idea where Druitt was on August 6th/7th, the date of the Tabram murder.

                                In fact, we do not know his whereabouts on August 5,6,7,8, or 9th which is a five-day stretch, with Bank Holiday in the middle of it.

                                If you recall, William Druitt claimed that Monty stayed with him 'one night' in October 1888, and there was an express between London and Bournemouth so a person could be a day tripper if they so desired.

                                Now give me your best rendition of 'Day Tripper, Monday Ripper, yeah!' to the tune of the Lennon/McCartney song. (Sorry, no disrespect intended). Cheers.
                                Thanks for that Roger. I knew that you’d come up trumps. Now I’m just waiting to see how someone tries to spin that into an alibi for Tabram. Nothing would surprise me in Druitt world (as you know as well as anyone)
                                Regards

                                Sir Herlock Sholmes.

                                “A house of delusions is cheap to build but draughty to live in.”

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X