Where did Druitt enter the Thames?

[Sam Flynn]

Good points, Andy, although I sense there still may be some mileage in finding out a little more about how the "minor stations" were run at that time - e.g., whether Turnham Green (District Line) was effectively inoperative at certain times of the day.

[aspallek]

Yes I agree, Gareth. And especially so since December 1 was a Saturday. Some time ago I addressed that question to the London Transport Museum but all they could give me was an indefinite answer that as far as they knew service to Turnham Green was regular.

[Sam Flynn]

You have a touching faith in the British transport system, Andy - although it could well have been more "user-friendly" in 1888 than its somewhat deficient descendant is today!

[Robert]

Were they extending the line there about that time? Would that have led to station inaccessibility?

[George Hutchinson]

Does anyone know where this myth of Druitt jumping at Westminster Bridge comes from?

PHILIP

[Chris]

Does anyone know where this myth of Druitt jumping at Westminster Bridge comes from?

At a guess, from Edwin Woodhall's story of the drowned body of "White-eyes" being found at Westminster Pier.

[Dave O]

I also agree that Druitt likely waded into the water close to where he was found, just because I assume he gathered his rocks from the bank as opposed to lugging them around, and otherwise I'd expect him to have been battered from either jumping off a bridge, or from sliding around and colliding with river debris for a month. I have read a few inquests where bodies had been recovered after spending a long time in the Thames, and they experienced some degree of postmortem violence. So far as I know, Druitt seems to have been intact though decomposed.

Dave

[anna]

Hi all,
Just a bit of info...it may be of use?
Whilst reading through the local papers of the time...lots of locals threw themselves in the drink at Deptford.
The main place to go in,was just behind "Deptford Bridge" (which is a stone bridge,on the main route into Deptford and the High Street).Behind this,was the ideal spot to top yourself.If you stand on the bridge,the inlet of the Thames with the deep water is in the background and just before the bridge it turns into a deep twisting canal.On either side are stone wharf walls with the canal bank below.There is a drop of a few feet into the water.It is unlit and extremely dark at night.If someone did spot you from the bridge,which in the pitch black would be unlikely,but if they did,it would take them some time to climb down from the bridge to the bank,to get to you.Many boats were moored here,as it was the main place for trade to come into Deptford itself, via the Thames.Bodies of locals, were known to have got caught up amongst the boats and taken on the strong tide,back into the Thames.
You couldn't go in at Blackheath...as technically Blackheath is just that..just a heath and a village....the nearest water would be by walking through Greenwich Park and down to the banks of the Thames.
ANNA.

[John Savage]

Hi Chris,

We have discussed the topic of were Monty entered the Thames before, and below is a note that I made in March 2006. I hope it is of some help.

Could Monty’s body have drifted in the Thames?

A difficult question to answer with any certainty, but I am sure it is at least possible to try. From a little research that I have done, it appears that a victim of drowning would first of all sink to the bottom, and the stones in Druitt’s pockets would have ensured this. However after a period of time purification would set in and this slowly builds up gases in the body until eventually buoyancy is achieved, the actual timing of this would depend on several variables such as body weight, clothing, and particularly water temperature; but the best guide I can find is from a University of Dundee website which states “For the Thames, Simpson offers the following guidelines for resurfacing times: June to August: 2 days, April May September and October: 3-5 days, November and December: 10-14 days, January and February: possibly no resurfacing. At water temperatures persistently below 45 degrees F there may be no appreciable decomposition after several weeks.

As Druitt’s body was said to have been in the water for about a month it would be reasonable, I think, to suppose that his body would have lain on the riverbed for about 2-3 weeks moving only slightly, and could then have been floating for about a week. During this time the body could have caught up on one or more obstructions which would have reduced the rate of travel, but nevertheless the Thames has a current of about 1 knot which would mean that anything floating could move about 4-5 miles up or down the river either way. It should also be remembered that the general flow of any river is towards the sea, in this case from the west, say Richmond or Kew, but the flood tide would always move any floating object back towards the west.

When considering tides it has to be remembered that there are two different types of tide, Spring Tides and Neap Tides; the difference being that the rise and fall is higher on Springs than on Neaps, this also means that the current is at its strongest on Springs. Also note that the word “spring” does not in this instance have anything to do with the seasons, as you all know, tides are governed by the moon and we have strong spring tides and weaker neap tides on a roughly weekly basis. According to the waterman Winslade he was out on the river on Monday 31st. December at about 1pm, when he said that the tide was at “about half flood running up”, this I take to mean that the tide was half way through it’s incoming (flood) cycle. I have checked the Admiralty tidal predictions for the period in question and on Monday 31st December 1888 low water is given as 8.23am and high water at 12.45pm. (This seems at variance to Winslade’s statement). Now the weaker neap tides would have been at their lowest about the Thursday previous, and continued building until Thursday 3rd. January, therefore this is a time when the body could have surfaced and begun to move.

How far could a body move in the Thames? Almost impossible to say, but the following example may be of interest.
On 6th. September 2005 a young girl, Sirena Grant aged 14 fell into the Thames at the Albert Embankment, halfway between Lambeth Bridge and Vauxhall Bridge. Her body was recovered from the river at 5.50pm. On 8th. September 2005 near HMS Belfast, which is moored just above Tower Bridge; a distance, I estimate, of about 3-4 miles.

It is not my intension to insist that Druitt did not enter the Thames at Hammersmith or Chiswick, simply to point out that there is a possibility that it could have been somewhere else. If anyone wishes to look at the tidal predictions for Hammersmith between 30/12/1888 and 04/01/1888 please contact me by e-mail and I will be happy to forward these on.

Rgds
John

[John Savage]

Hi Chris,

Here is another note that I made back in 2006.
I am sorry if parts of it repeat what I have said above but I am just digging out my old notes in case they are of interest.


One other aspect that could have played a part in when Druitt’s body began to float is the tide.

As we all know tides are caused by the effects of the moon, this means that we are able to predict not only the time of high water, but also the depth. There are two types of tide known as Spring tides and Neap tides, on a Spring tide the current will be greater and the water level higher than on a neap tide. The lunar cycle causes these tides to occur on a roughly weekly basis, one week being Neap tides followed by one week of Spring tides, the tides rising or falling gradually day-by-day.

On the day Druitt’s body was recovered (a Monday) tidal predictions show that the tides had been rising for a couple of days, the predicted height on Sunday being 5.1meters and 5.4 meters on Monday, rising to a maximum of 5.9 meters on Thursday.

Whilst decomposition would have caused a build up of gases which would increase the buoyancy of the body it is also necessary to have sufficient water for it to float, and as shown that water was on the increase.

Another factor could also be that when a body lies on a muddy riverbed the mud creates a kind of suction (try putting on your wellies and walking through some river mud). An increase in the amount of water would help to break that suction, and this could well have something to do with Jeffery’s comments about firing canon; perhaps the vibration was to break the suction?

Another small but interesting point about these tides is the testimony of Winslade, the waterman, who states in the Acton Chiswick and Turnham Green Gazette “About one o’clock on Monday he was on the river in a boat, when he saw the body floating. The tide was at half flood, running up”.
Half flood running up? Not according to the tidal predictions, which state that high tide on that day was 12.45pm; half flood would have been about 10.30am.
This is not a point of any real significance in the Druitt saga, but it does make me wonder how good a boatman Winslade was.

Rgds
John

[Sam Flynn]

Fabulous stuff, John.

So, in two days, the girl got carried eastwards by some 3 miles (I go with the "bottom end" of your estimate). But then, she was presumably not weighted down. In Druitt's case, whom we know was weighted down, there are some rather complex factors that need to be borne in mind, as your splendid posts so lucidly set out.

[Roy Corduroy]

Yes John, thank you. This introduces more variables.

Thank you Andy for the photos of your trip to Chiswick on the other thread and I note this is near the archives at Kew. Also, thanks for the info about the two "Hammersmith Station" locations which you, Sam and others have been discussing as per train schedules, etc.

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[George Hutchinson]

At a guess, from Edwin Woodhall's story of the drowned body of "White-eyes" being found at Westminster Pier.

Thanks, Chris. I can cite a concurrent example. THE GHOST SHIP (1937) alludes to it and I think a story from that master of half-truths, Elliott O'Donnell, may even put it before that (all linked to a ghost story). The claim is that a man suspected of being JTR, whose body was found in The Thames, had jumped off Westminster Bridge at the end of December (although the story puts it as 1889) and his ghost was supposed to bump into people as a poltergeist.

PHILIP

[aspallek]

I'll double check this later but I suspect this comes, as Chris says, from a confusion of Druitt with the "suspect" in Woodhall's book, who is obviously based on Dr. "White Eyes" Holt. I'm not 100% sure but I think Woodhall mentions Westminster Bridge as the site from which the suspect jumped.

Woodhall is not a reliable source but he quotes an unnamed individual who supposedly was shown a mortuary picture of this drowning victim/Ripper suspect.

[Chris]

Thanks, Chris. I can cite a concurrent example. THE GHOST SHIP (1937) alludes to it and I think a story from that master of half-truths, Elliott O'Donnell, may even put it before that (all linked to a ghost story). The claim is that a man suspected of being JTR, whose body was found in The Thames, had jumped off Westminster Bridge at the end of December (although the story puts it as 1889) and his ghost was supposed to bump into people as a poltergeist.

Ah. Maybe it's not related to Woodhall's tale in that case, unless he adopted a story that was already current.

I seem to remember reading that there was a real incident that was supposed to have inspired Woodhall's story of the drowned body being trapped under a paddle boat at Westminster Pier, but I can't find the details.