Where did Druitt enter the Thames?

[aspallek]

Ah. Maybe it's not related to Woodhall's tale in that case, unless he adopted a story that was already current.

I seem to remember reading that there was a real incident that was supposed to have inspired Woodhall's story of the drowned body being trapped under a paddle boat at Westminster Pier, but I can't find the details.

Yes, I seem to recall this as well. I suspect Woodhall (1937) was picking up bits and pieces of various stories. I an amusing bit of over-literality, Woodhall has the suspect knocking a Scotland Yard official upside the head with a stick, taking the comments of Macnaghten just a bit too literally!

[aspallek]

A number of things I would like to comment on there:

There is a very interesting book "I Guarded the Waterfront" (1948) by A.P. Woods, who was a waterman on the Thames in the early 20th century. He details the recovery of several drowning victims, including those who were found a distance from where they entered that water -- though this was often caused by bodies being entrapped on the bottom of moving boats. One of the things that Woods mentions is the belief that inhaling fumes from a decomposing body could be deadly -- that even medical people shared this belief. One wonders then how closely Druitt's body would have been examined. Woods also tells of passing, as a small boy, near the scene of a Ripper murder right after it happened. However, the details he gives do not match any of the known canonical or non-canonical murders exactly.

As Gareth mentioned, Druitt's body was weighted down (and rather heavily), making it much more difficult to move upstream any great distance. However, once the body was floating it could have moved downstream quite a ways. It could have done so unnoticed on Dec 31 as that day was extremely foggy on the Thames, halting all traffic for a time. Note the the girl mentioned by John was not weighted down and was recovered downstream.

I, too, have been puzzled concerning Winslade's comments regarding the tidal conditions at the time he recovered the body. There are three possibilities: (1) "half flood running up" does not mean what we are assuming it to mean. (2) Winslade was wrong about the tidal conditions. (3) There is an error in reporting the time of the body's discovery. At any rate it doesn't appear to make a great deal of difference.

As to how he did it, yes he could have waded in. As low tide was at 8:23, Druitt could have walked out on the causeway (visible in Roy's photo above) to the middle part of the river perhaps a couple hours before that and simply stepped off into deeper water. This would mean his body was found just a few yards upstream from where he stepped in.

Regarding the possibility of Turnham Green or Ravenscourt Park stations being out of service on 1 Dec, I have searched newspapers for mention of this possibility but have as of yet found no mention. There were no major works such as extending the line being done then. In 1877 the Metropolitan District Railway built an extension west of Hammersmith that allowed their trains access to the LSWR track east of Ravenscourt Park. Thus District trains ran along LSWR track into Ravenscourt Park, Turnham Green and all the way to Richmond.

In conclusion, I remind once again that we must remember the rail ticket. We can place Druitt at Hammersmith station on Dec. 1. His body was found not far from there. It is therefore most reasonable to presume that he entered the water in that vicinity.

[Roy Corduroy]

I made an estimation of where he drowned based on my false assumption about railroad stations.

He arrived at the Hammersmith station near Hammersmith Bridge, pictured below. Since many people commit suicide by jumping off a bridge, he could have too. Then, according to the unique tidal flow of the Thames, his body, after surfacing could have gone upriver to Chiswick.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Regarding (specifically) River Thames suicides, Professor Keith Simpson, the late eminent pathologist, gave the following guidelines for corpse resurfacing times—

"June to August: 2 days
April, May, September and October: 3-5 days
November, December: 10-14 days
January, February: possibly no resurfacing.

"Heavy clothing and weights attached to the body may delay but will not usually prevent the body rising. Putrefaction proceeds at a slower rate in water than in air, in sea water than in fresh water and in running water than in stagnant water. The principal determinant is the temperature of the water.

And regarding decomposition, he adds - "At water temperatures persistently below 45°F there may be no appreciable decomposition after several weeks."

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Andrew and Simon and All,
Apparently only a Thames expert-such as the professional fishermen or waterman - in 1888- could really know where Druitt"s body would have been.The beautiful River Thames, is also treacherous and has hidden tides and dangerous currents silently working away while appearing as calm as a duck pond on the surface.It is apparently extraordinary how quickly a person can go under,often sucked under very rapidly then will get sucked down where hundreds of tons of water can drive the body to the bottom where it will rotate,rise,then sink again because of the nature of the tidal flows and cross currents.Peter Ackroyd"s book "Thames-Sacred River" is very good on this .

[jmenges]

And regarding decomposition, he adds - "At water temperatures persistently below 45°F there may be no appreciable decomposition after several weeks."

Although, in cold river water during the winter months, bodies tend to sink to the river floor, and depending on the river bottom terrain, could receive significant damage (especially to the face) by the body's contact with the river bottom.

Case in point, writer/performance artist Spalding Gray, who jumped from the Staten Island Ferry into the East River in NYC on January 10th, 2004 and was missing for nearly two months. While his body did not travel far from the point of his suicide, nor did it become 'bloated' or decayed, his body did suffer significant damage due to contact with the river bottom.

JM

[Nemo]

Osiers connection?

Hi all,

Having recently read "Montague Druitt-Portrait of a contender" and "The Prince, his tutor and the Ripper", I subscribe to the notion that there is some connection between M. Druitt and a house called the Osiers at Chiswick, owned by a Mr. Harry Wilson at the time.

The house was a supposed meeting place for homosexuals connected with the Cambridge Apostles. Druitts body was found within a couple of hundred yards of the house which is next to the Thames.

Indeed, it has been suggested that Druitt was murdered at the Osiers or at least encouraged to commit suicide. It is also suggested that Druitt may have been seeking some type of help or aid from someone at the Osiers after his dismissal from his school, and on being rejected, he committed suicide.

It was mentioned that the body was decomposed to an extent that would not have been evident if the body had been in the water since early December. The suggestion here was that his body was not in the water for a period of time immediately after his death. Either the "flooding" or something similar may have washed his body from a culvert into the Thames, or that his body lay somewhere hidden before it was placed in the river at a later time.

[Robert]

Hi Nemo

On the murder scenario : it seems a rather incompetent murder. They murder someone at their own house, then put him in the Thames outside their own front door, and instead of obliterating the face to prevent identification, they leave paper evidence of ID on the body.

[Natalie Severn]

Nemo,
I am not so sure about Druitt being gay.He may have been, but being so keen on club life with the chaps and his cricket and football makes him sound quite the lad really.
Druitt himself thinks he has inherited some mental illness from his mother who had been diagnosed and placed in an asylum,and this may have concerned him a great deal-as per the alleged suicide note.Several members of his immediate family committed suicide after all.
Above all there was the nearby Chiswick House Lunatic Asylum and its just as likely he was hoping to get help himself that day--or wanting to discover the exact prognosis on his mother who had become very paranoid.
Best
Norma

[Nemo]

Hi Richard

If Druitt was murdered at the Osiers then I would agree with you that retrospectively it would seem a very incompetent murder. However, it would not be an impossibility. The murderer(s) may well have thought that the body would remain at the bottom of the Thames evermore due to it being weighed down, or conversely, that the body would have been washed away at some point - such scenarios would only indicate an incompetent murderer, not that a murder never occurred.

Hi Natalie

I do think the homosexual "underworld" of 1888 was more than accessible to Druitt, though obviously I cannot say for certain that he was gay. He certainly was in close proximity to, and probably friendly with, some of the attendees of the Osiers - who were gay. Indeed, many of these were blatant paedophiles - and paedophilia is one of the suggested reasons for Druitts dismissal. He was apparently employed to look after pupils during the night - each of whom had an individual cubicle type of sleeping chamber rather than a dormitory arrangement. This gave him ample opportunity for paedophilic activity.

The "serious trouble" could also have been monetary fraud or the like, but the paedophilic aspect ties in with a possible reason to visit the Osiers and the dramatic way in which Druitt's name was struck from all records.

There is a very reasonable case made out in Mr. Leighton's book that the suicide note was forged by Druitts elder brother William or at least that it contained a lot more than was revealed at the inquest. I think these possibilities should at least be considered.

Very intriguing...

I do not consider that Druitt is the Ripper but I think he is connected with paedophilia/homosexuality within certain academic circles of 1888. Hence the Osiers and Chiswick connection.

[aspallek]

Hi Nemo,

The connection between Druitt and The Osiers is via John Henry Lonsdale. Lonsdale's name is written in Wilson's dairy and Lonsdale certainly know Druitt. In fact they live only yard apart at Blackheath and had chambers in the same set of buildings.

I don't know about the homosexual connection, however. Lonsdale seems the unlikely candidate to be involved in this. By the account of his sister, Lonsdale was a deeply religious man. He switched from law to church work in 1887 and his first assignment as curate was to the Druitt family parish of Wimborne Minster. Lonsdale's grandfather was longtime bishop at Lichfield.

A Harry Wilson participated in the defense of Thomas Sadler. I don't know for sure whether it is the same Harry Wilson, however.

[Mayerling]

On Watery Deaths in the Thames and elsewhere, 1887-1891

I have long been curious about Druitt's oddly timely demise - he drowned just in time for the later statement of MacNaughten to get some strength regarding Druitt being the Ripper and committing suicide within a month of the horror at Miller's Court. It's so nice and pat.

Of course I have tried to see if there is anything out there that is of a similar nature. The story of a watery death for the Ripper was taken up by Mrs. Belloc Lowndes in THE LODGER (though in the Serpentine), and that was years before the MacNaughten memorandum was released. How did she hear of it?

I'm of the opinion of several literary people being aware of the story before the general public. Mrs. Lowndes' husband was a prominent newspaperman in London (I believe connected to the TIMES). But there are two others which always impressed me.

First (and I know one of you is going to think this is typical of me) was Conan Doyle. In his first set of Sherlock Holmes short stories (the collection known as THE ADVENTURES OF SHERLOCK HOLMES) is that peculiar tale called THE ADVENTURE OF THE FIVE ORANGE PIPS. In it, Holmes is hired by a man named (oddly enough) John Openshaw, whose father and uncle both died under odd circumstances after getting messages in the mail sent with several orange pips (pits) in them. Now Openshaw has gotten one, and he shows this to Holmes and leaves. The next morning it is discovered (by Watson reading the paper) that Openshaw has been found drowned in the Thames in an apparent accident after falling off London Bridge.

Secondly there is a story by Oscar Wilde, LORD ARTHUR SAVILE'S CRIME, published in 1891, the same year as THE FIVE ORANGE PIPS, in a book called LORD ARTHUR SAVILE'S CRIME AND OTHER TALES. In it a fortune teller reading the palm of Lord Arthur Savile discovers that he will commit a murder.
The typical Wilde farce shows Lord Arthur trying to kill several people and failing every time. Finally, whild contemplating suicide, Lord Arthur is crossing London Bridge when he sees Mr. Podgers (the fortune teller) looking over the Thames at the railing. As it is a foggy night, Lord Arthur pushes Podgers over the railing, and he is drowned (and Lord Arthur gets away with the murder).

Both these points are curious at best but consider this:

1) in 1889 Conan Doyle and Wilde became friendly acquaintances when they met at a dinner held by the American Representative for Lippincott's Magazine in London. Wilde told Doyle that he really admired the novel MICAH CLARKE for the characterization of Mr. Justice (later Lord Chancellor) George Jeffreys as a type of handsome, fallen angel. As a result of the dinner, besides becoming friends, Doyle and Wilde agreed to publish with Lippincott.
Doyle published the second Holmes novel, THE SIGN OF FOUR, and Wilde published THE PICTURE OF DORIAN GREY. Doyle mentions the incident in his autobiography MEMORIES AND ADVENTURES, but tries to downplay it, and to suggest that Wilde was slightly deranged (so the friendship was never too close). MEMORIES AND ADVENTURES was published in 1924, and Doyle was heavily involved in his own crusade about Spiritualism. He would wish not to give ammunition to the foes of his crusade regarding his own past by boasting of a really deep friendship with the controvertial Wilde in the 1920s.

a) Doyle may have been closer to Wilde than he admitted. In THE SIGN OF FOUR, the establishment of one of the characters, Thaddeus Sholto, has definite suggestiveness of homosexuality, and Sholto bears some resemblance in his appearance to Wilde. The name of Sholto's father, "John Sholto" happens to be part of the name of the John Sholto Douglas, the father of Lord Alfred Douglas, who as Marquess of Queensbury would cause the destruction of Wilde by his insult at Wilde's club ("To Oscar Wilde, posing as a somdomite.").

2) Wilde was fascinated by crime. He wrote an interesting study on the career of Thomas Griffiths Wainewright, the Regency Era forger and poisoner, called PEN, PENCIL AND POISON.

3) Wilde also liked to use reality in his stories. In LORD ARTHUR SAVILE'S CRIME AND OTHER TALES is the story, THE MODEL MILLIONAIRE, wherein a struggling lawyer gives some money to an apparently impoverished tramp who an artist friend is painting. It turns out the tramp is actually the richest man in France, who his friend was painting as a tramp as a gag portrait. This story is actually true - it happened when Eugene Delacroix painted a picture of Baron James de Rothschild in the 1850s. It appears that not only did Wilde like to use actual stories for his backgrounds, but that at least on was in the collection for LORD ARTHUR SAVILE'S CRIME AND OTHER TALES. Were two?

I would like to say definitely yes, but I can't prove it. Yet I find it odd that the drowning murder in THE FIVE ORANGE PIPS is invisible (Openshaw's screams for help are heard, but nobody actually saw what happened) and the murder in LORD ARTHUR SAVILE'S CRIME is invisible to the world except for Lord Arthur due to the fog.

I may add that Wilde was a neighbor of Melville MacNaughten on Tite Street.

MacNaughten talking to Wilde (if they socialized - big if by the way), and Wilde mentioning it to Doyle - not too well supported but possibly there.

The other example of an attempt at drowning as murder that I am aware of in this period occured in 1890 in Niagara Falls, Ontario. In the "Blenheim Forrest Murder" of Frederick Benwell by Reginald Birchall, Birchall also targetted a second man who had invested a huge sum in a non-existant farm in Canada. This second man was twice nearly thrown off a bridge over Niagara Falls by a suddenly clumsy Birchall, and really escaped falling in a third time when a stranger appeared crossing the bridge (and Birchall stopped because there would have been a witness).

There definitely seems to have been a cultural tradition that arranged accidents at the bridges over the Thames or elsewhere were always a possibility.

Jeff

[Nemo]

Hi Andy

I too believe Druitt knew Lonsdale and by inference he would certainly know Henry Stephen.

I do not think though that Lonsdales upright character would negate the possibility of Montague being corrupt in any way.

A possible scenario would be that Montague was very law abiding and upright also, and that he had possibly a good and righteous friend in Lonsdale.

After being introduced into the circle of friends that surrounded the Osiers though, his innate homosexuality came to the fore and he possibly was steered or encouraged in some fashion (not necessarily co-erced) to commit some sexual crime at his school.

It need not have been a physical crime really. Discussions about erotica, love, sex etc must have been very erudite at the Osiers given the intelligence and Bohemianism of some of the participants.

If Montague had been accused by a pupil of simply attempting to discuss sex or anything related to sex in a particular way, then the head of school may well have regarded this as a serious matter.

Druitt may then have sought some type of help, aid or support from his so called friends at the Osiers. Mainly I think he would have been worried about the shame and embarrassment to himself and his family. When he was rejected, he committed suicide by entering the Thames at Chiswick.

I think evidence points away from the "serious trouble" as being of financial origin.

[Chris]

Of course I have tried to see if there is anything out there that is of a similar nature. The story of a watery death for the Ripper was taken up by Mrs. Belloc Lowndes in THE LODGER (though in the Serpentine), and that was years before the MacNaughten memorandum was released. How did she hear of it?

Hadn't Griffiths and Sims let the cat out of the bag by the late 1890s?

[Mayerling]

THey had let it out, if you read Griffith's book or read Sims copy or been in contact with them. So they are a potential leak. Sims was a newspaper reporter and writer too, so he could have known Mr. Lowndes.