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G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
Orgin of "Drowned Doctor"
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aspallek
3rd February 2007, 05:00 PM
Let's take a fresh approach to this. Let's assume there is nothing to the Bachert tale as related by McCormick. If that is so, then...
What are the origins of the "drowned doctor" suspect-type?
When did such a theory first make its appearance around SY?
Are we to believe that Macnaghten simply made this suspect-type up out of his imagination and assigned it Druitt's identity?
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Grey Hunter
4th February 2007, 12:05 AM
Hi Andy, no I'm not following you around. As Macnaghten is the starting point here I suppose that it is necessary to repeat what he wrote on 23 February 1894 -
(1) A Mr. M. J. Druitt, said to be a doctor & of good family, who disappeared at the time of the Miller's Court murder, & whose body (which was said to have been upwards of a month in the water) was found in the Thames on 31st. Decr., or about 7 weeks after that murder. He was sexually insane and from private inf. I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer.
This must be your starting point on this quest and contains the requisite ingredients of your suspect type, and it was obviously already firmly established 'around SY' before 23 February 1894, but we don't know how long before.
What you are seeking is an actual drowned doctor (preferably in the Thames) who might fit the bill better than Druitt. The implication of this, I suppose, is that Macnaghten was totally wrong as to who the suspect was rather than being merely mistaken as to his occupation?
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dannorder
4th February 2007, 12:24 AM
If we're open to the idea that "Kosminski" wasn't a Kosminski, Druitt should probably have the same benefit of the doubt at least as a thought experiment. Not that the two situations are exactly the same, of course, but it's worth exploring.
Of course if someone tries to argue that Ostrog was really just a confused recollection of "Astrakhan" we'll have the hat trick. (Oh man, I might need an intervention. As soon as typed that intending it as a joke it started sounding logical. They both had a thing for watches, anyway...)
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aspallek
4th February 2007, 12:56 AM
That's quite alright, GH, follow me around all you please! I've been followed by the likes of far worse.
OK, you and I agree that the "drowned doctor" theory was already in place at SY before 1894, since Macnaghten drew on it for his memo.
Next question:
How long before 1894 was such a theory current at SY?
No fair saying, "we don't know how long"! Our task is to come up with an estimate or range of dates for the appearance of such a theory at SY. What's the earliest such a theory could have begun?
Clarification:
When I speak of a "drowned doctor" or a "Druitt-like" suspect I am speaking of a suspect who either was Druitt himself or that is similar enough to Druitt to have have confused with him. But there may be some differences. He may or may not have been found in the Thames for example. He may or may not have been found on Dec. 31, for example.
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johnr
4th February 2007, 02:47 AM
Hello Andy and GH et al,
I am pleased some latitude has been allowed for just when the "doctor found drowned" spore started to emerge in Ripper discussions.
I think the newspapers either picked up on street gossip or lower ranked police whispering that they had been ordered to keep their eyes open for a "gent" with medical knowledge.
From memory, several coroners and inquest witnesses speculated on the Ripper having experience at cutting up human corpses; or at least, knowing his way around a female corpse.The newspapers seized on this, and everyone was on the look-out for a "toff" in a topper and carrying a black bag (to carry his knives in).
Several retired policemen later reminisced on medical men found loitering in the stews of the East End , who were later released when it was found they could prove they were doctors.
The respectable Dr Thomas Barnardo was even questioned because he actually knew at least one Ripper victim, had medical knowledge and rescued abandoned street children (some of whom if not alll, were the product of unplanned pregnancies from "hasty local relationships").
I read that at one stage, groups of East Enders loitered outside the Middlesex Hospital opposite Whitechapel station, eyeing the comings and goings, on the off-chance that Providence would grant them the insight to spot the Ripper amongst the hospital's denizens.
So the Doctor-As-Ripper theory gradually percolated over the autumn of 1888.
Just as with most overcrowded cities - and particularly some depressed suburbs - there has always been a chosen site at which to commit suicide.
A very high mountain, a tall building, a beautiful stretch of a river; in the ocean.
In London, the most favoured means of suiciding was by hurling oneself into the Thames. Consequently, by the LVP, a well-oiled machinery had been put in place for recovering and identifying persons "found apparently drowned".
So, when you apply detective logic about why a series of murders by the same hand suddenly ceases, the conclusion usually is:gone abroad or moved to another city in Britain; been locked up in prison; committed to an asylum; died of natural causes; or, committed suicide.
So if persons discussing the Ripper murders -at that time- believed the perpetrator was a person with medical knowledge, and that the crimes ceased because they had suicided, it was logical in London to assume they
would throw themselves into the Thames to end it all. Conan Doyle had at least two stories using exactly that form of suicide in his writings.
I think the "drowned medical man" theory took hold more strongly once the
interested pursuers realised that the murders had stopped. Then we see a
host of police memoirs, press discussions and urban myths stating just that.
So, whilst Macnaghten may have been the first senior police official to articulate that theory, albeit in secret, others later leaked his belief in their own writings.
But before Macnaghten, there was definitely consideration of such a theory by others.
JOHN RUFFELS.
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robert
4th February 2007, 03:13 PM
GH has doubtless seen this already, but for the benefit of anyone who hasn't, here's an item from the Penny Illustrated Paper, Sept 22nd 1888.
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aspallek
4th February 2007, 06:45 PM
Thanks for that clipping, Robert. I have heard that Chiswick lay outside the area patrolled by the Thames Police but I am not certain of this.
I think we need to pare the "drown doctor" theory down to its basic form. What are the essential elements? I believe the essential elements are these:
1. Suspect is a doctor or someone with medical training -- or is believed to be.
2. Suspect committed suicide shortly after the Kelly murder, probably by drowning.
3. Suspicion kept secret from the public by police.
4. Police lacked universal agreement on the guilt of the suspect.
.
G o o g l e's cache is the snapshot that we took of the page as we crawled the web.
Orgin of "Drowned Doctor"
.
.
.
aspallek
3rd February 2007, 05:00 PM
Let's take a fresh approach to this. Let's assume there is nothing to the Bachert tale as related by McCormick. If that is so, then...
What are the origins of the "drowned doctor" suspect-type?
When did such a theory first make its appearance around SY?
Are we to believe that Macnaghten simply made this suspect-type up out of his imagination and assigned it Druitt's identity?
.
.
.
Grey Hunter
4th February 2007, 12:05 AM
Hi Andy, no I'm not following you around. As Macnaghten is the starting point here I suppose that it is necessary to repeat what he wrote on 23 February 1894 -
(1) A Mr. M. J. Druitt, said to be a doctor & of good family, who disappeared at the time of the Miller's Court murder, & whose body (which was said to have been upwards of a month in the water) was found in the Thames on 31st. Decr., or about 7 weeks after that murder. He was sexually insane and from private inf. I have little doubt but that his own family believed him to have been the murderer.
This must be your starting point on this quest and contains the requisite ingredients of your suspect type, and it was obviously already firmly established 'around SY' before 23 February 1894, but we don't know how long before.
What you are seeking is an actual drowned doctor (preferably in the Thames) who might fit the bill better than Druitt. The implication of this, I suppose, is that Macnaghten was totally wrong as to who the suspect was rather than being merely mistaken as to his occupation?
.
.
.
dannorder
4th February 2007, 12:24 AM
If we're open to the idea that "Kosminski" wasn't a Kosminski, Druitt should probably have the same benefit of the doubt at least as a thought experiment. Not that the two situations are exactly the same, of course, but it's worth exploring.
Of course if someone tries to argue that Ostrog was really just a confused recollection of "Astrakhan" we'll have the hat trick. (Oh man, I might need an intervention. As soon as typed that intending it as a joke it started sounding logical. They both had a thing for watches, anyway...)
.
.
.
aspallek
4th February 2007, 12:56 AM
That's quite alright, GH, follow me around all you please! I've been followed by the likes of far worse.
OK, you and I agree that the "drowned doctor" theory was already in place at SY before 1894, since Macnaghten drew on it for his memo.
Next question:
How long before 1894 was such a theory current at SY?
No fair saying, "we don't know how long"! Our task is to come up with an estimate or range of dates for the appearance of such a theory at SY. What's the earliest such a theory could have begun?
Clarification:
When I speak of a "drowned doctor" or a "Druitt-like" suspect I am speaking of a suspect who either was Druitt himself or that is similar enough to Druitt to have have confused with him. But there may be some differences. He may or may not have been found in the Thames for example. He may or may not have been found on Dec. 31, for example.
.
.
.
johnr
4th February 2007, 02:47 AM
Hello Andy and GH et al,
I am pleased some latitude has been allowed for just when the "doctor found drowned" spore started to emerge in Ripper discussions.
I think the newspapers either picked up on street gossip or lower ranked police whispering that they had been ordered to keep their eyes open for a "gent" with medical knowledge.
From memory, several coroners and inquest witnesses speculated on the Ripper having experience at cutting up human corpses; or at least, knowing his way around a female corpse.The newspapers seized on this, and everyone was on the look-out for a "toff" in a topper and carrying a black bag (to carry his knives in).
Several retired policemen later reminisced on medical men found loitering in the stews of the East End , who were later released when it was found they could prove they were doctors.
The respectable Dr Thomas Barnardo was even questioned because he actually knew at least one Ripper victim, had medical knowledge and rescued abandoned street children (some of whom if not alll, were the product of unplanned pregnancies from "hasty local relationships").
I read that at one stage, groups of East Enders loitered outside the Middlesex Hospital opposite Whitechapel station, eyeing the comings and goings, on the off-chance that Providence would grant them the insight to spot the Ripper amongst the hospital's denizens.
So the Doctor-As-Ripper theory gradually percolated over the autumn of 1888.
Just as with most overcrowded cities - and particularly some depressed suburbs - there has always been a chosen site at which to commit suicide.
A very high mountain, a tall building, a beautiful stretch of a river; in the ocean.
In London, the most favoured means of suiciding was by hurling oneself into the Thames. Consequently, by the LVP, a well-oiled machinery had been put in place for recovering and identifying persons "found apparently drowned".
So, when you apply detective logic about why a series of murders by the same hand suddenly ceases, the conclusion usually is:gone abroad or moved to another city in Britain; been locked up in prison; committed to an asylum; died of natural causes; or, committed suicide.
So if persons discussing the Ripper murders -at that time- believed the perpetrator was a person with medical knowledge, and that the crimes ceased because they had suicided, it was logical in London to assume they
would throw themselves into the Thames to end it all. Conan Doyle had at least two stories using exactly that form of suicide in his writings.
I think the "drowned medical man" theory took hold more strongly once the
interested pursuers realised that the murders had stopped. Then we see a
host of police memoirs, press discussions and urban myths stating just that.
So, whilst Macnaghten may have been the first senior police official to articulate that theory, albeit in secret, others later leaked his belief in their own writings.
But before Macnaghten, there was definitely consideration of such a theory by others.
JOHN RUFFELS.
.
.
.
robert
4th February 2007, 03:13 PM
GH has doubtless seen this already, but for the benefit of anyone who hasn't, here's an item from the Penny Illustrated Paper, Sept 22nd 1888.
.
.
.
aspallek
4th February 2007, 06:45 PM
Thanks for that clipping, Robert. I have heard that Chiswick lay outside the area patrolled by the Thames Police but I am not certain of this.
I think we need to pare the "drown doctor" theory down to its basic form. What are the essential elements? I believe the essential elements are these:
1. Suspect is a doctor or someone with medical training -- or is believed to be.
2. Suspect committed suicide shortly after the Kelly murder, probably by drowning.
3. Suspicion kept secret from the public by police.
4. Police lacked universal agreement on the guilt of the suspect.
.
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