Orgin of "Drowned Doctor" (recovered thread)

[Robert]

Congratulations to Andy Spallek for identifying the West of England MP.

[Sam Flynn]

Congratulations to Andy Spallek for identifying the West of England MP.

I wholeheartedly concur, Robert. Well done, Andy! Finally, it's all starting to make sense...

[aspallek]

I am cross posing my post from the Ripper Notes #28 thread here in order to move the discussion to a more appropriate place:

http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...6&postcount=76

Some very interesting stuff here, indeed. Yes, the "suicided doctor" is a recurrent theme that surfaces in many variations over the years and never really disappears. That suspect does not always take the name or precise form of Druitt, however. This is one of the bits we have to process. Do we assume every form of the "suicided doctor" to be a reference to Druitt, or is the "suicided doctor" an entity unto itself which at times takes the form of Druitt? Again, we have to ask ourselves what was known by the principals at the time.

Where did the "suicided doctor" theory come from? What is its first mention? Assuming we toss out Bachert, the first appearance that we know of is Farquharson's "suicided surgeon's son" in early 1891, and it appears nearly certain to be a garbled reference to Druitt. I believe that Farquharson's tale is integral to understanding Macnaghten's private information. Farquharson was blabbing his story publicly, so that in itself was not the private information. Yet, follow up to Farquharson's tale may have led Macnaghten to further information that was indeed private. So, what did Macnaghten know by 1894 that so convinced him that Druitt was JtR? What information did he possess? That's what we have to ask ourselves.

The "suicided doctor" goes on in some form to manifest itself in the writings of Griffiths and Sims (who were following Macnaghten's lead), Abberline's dismissal, the Littlechild letter (mistakenly thinking Tumblety to have suicided), Basil Thompson's history of Scotland yard, Woodhall, McCormick, Farson, Cullen, Howells/Skinner, etc. Yes, some of these authors are unreliable, but I'm merely pointing out that the mythos has continued in a more or less unbroken line.

As to Abberline's dismissal of yet another version of the mythos ("drowned medical student"), that is more likely explained by his enthusiasm for Klosowski. If Abberline believes Klosowski to be the Ripper, then there can't be any truth to the drowned medical student theory.

[Dan Norder]

Hi Andy,

Wouldn't you think Abberline would have heard of the drowned medical student theory long before Klosowski? His statement seems to suggest that he had, anyway. Certainly if he had found that theory convincing to begin with he never would have entertained Klosowski as a suspect.

[aspallek]

Yes, I think Abberline probably heard of the "suicided doctor" some years earlier. He remained with the Met for a full year after Farquharson's comments were being reported. However, Abblerine's version of the mythos takes a different form from either Farquharson's or Macnaghten's. There seems perhaps to be an element of the "third insane medical student" (wasn't his name Sanderson?). He knew the mythos but in a slightly different form, which suggests he didn't have all the information either Farquharson or Macnaghten had.

You are correct in that the form of the mythos heard by Abberline did not compel him. Thus when a more attractive theory came along, Abberline completely discounted the earlier theory, if he had not already discounted it. Why he thought Klosowski so compelling remains a mystery.

[Johnr]

Thanks Dan Norder

Have I missed something?

No one seems to have thanked Dan Norder for retrieving those interesting lost postings from the old boards.
So, just in case, "Thanks Dan! Good Job. Well Done".
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Dan Norder]

You're welcome. A number of people helped out at the time -- Robert, Debs, Alan and others -- and should share in the kudos.

[aspallek]

An unintentional oversight. Thanks, Dan!

[Sara]

Regarding whether young barristers in nearby Chambers would have known each other: Chambers belong to one of the Inns of Court (Inner Temple, Middle Temple etc)

It was and still is an obligation on the pupils to dine at least once a week in the Hall of their respective Inn, so it's very unlikely that two student barristers belonging to the same Inn would not have met, especially given the other links between them

[Johnr]

Andy and All,

At the risk of posting this on the wrong thread, here goes anyway:

I know this refers more strictly to rumours or unlinked newspaper stories about the Ripper having killed himself as opposed to - more relevantly- having killed himself by drowning in The Thames...and being a medical man..

Can anyone please tell me if they know of a reference to local East End M
ember of Parliament, Montague Williams , asserting, I think just before the discovery of the Coles murder, that police had told him the Ripper murders had ceased?
Whilst that information will not bring us closer to learning the first mention of "the drowned medical person', it could throw light on a possible interesting link between police knowledge and a fellow M.P. of Farquharson's.
Bearing in mind that Farquharson was getting ready to move to an East London electorate,and.... -admittedly a bit later...
If I am correct about Montague Williams' assertions, this will influence my opinion of the Albert Bachert story about withdrawal of the Vigilance people.
It is possible McCormick was full of " Moonshine" but he could have discovered a couple of old newsclippings which were factual.
I am mindful of Grey Hunter's point that MEPOL records show Munro keeping the police in Whitechapel after November 1888, because he applied for more funding till March 1889, but might that not have been because the Powers That Be could not afford to risk public anger if they were wrong?
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Johnr]

Moving To Farquharson Thread...

I now see I have lifted the drift of my arguments here almost holus-bolus from Andy Spallek's marvellous Dissertation: "The West of England M.P.".
I will now take the above questions to the Farquharson thread on the Druitt/Suspects line. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Johnr]

Drowning Suicide In the Thames late 1888.

On the back of an old envelope I seem to have recorded something gleaned from a digitised Times (London) newspaper site.
The note refers to a search I did of this mystery index of: "Drowning suicides The Thames 1 November 1888 to 31 December 1888" .

There then folows a scribbled " 'The Times November 20, 1888.
"Yesterday Mr Wynne E. Baxter, Coroner South East Division Middlesex resumed an adjourned inquest at the Vestry Hall, High Street....".

I no longer have access to that searchable index, and cannot access " The Times". Can anyone else please discover the full text of this item?

You never know....
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Robert]

Hi John

It's in the Press section :

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/times/18881120.html

[Johnr]

What a Clever Chappie you are Robert,

Thanks. Now I can safely throw that old envelope away.
(Making sure I transfer the remaining notes regarding the " Ceratodus" (the Queensland Lung Fish), and the literal meaning of " Callipygian ").
JOHN RUFFELS.