Lack of Threads

[Harry D]

Had a prostitute been found dead on the streets of Whitechapel in January 1889 with wounds similar to Ellen Bury... what are the chances of her being considered among the canonicals?

[Columbo]

Had a prostitute been found dead on the streets of Whitechapel in January 1889 with wounds similar to Ellen Bury... what are the chances of her being considered among the canonicals?

None I don't think. She would've been closer to a Martha Tabram type victim.

But of course we know Ellen Bury's wounds were practical for disposal not for organ snatching like the others.

Columbo

[Columbo]

You don't see the difference in murdering in his own home compared to murdering on the streets or in a whore's bedroom with a broken window? We're also assuming that the murder was premeditated, when in his own words he killed her in a drunken rage.

On top of that, if Bury HAD cut Ellen's throat, it would've definitely buggered up his accidental death defence.



Maybe Polly began to regain consciousness and this was the origin of the Ripper's throat-cutting?

I suggest Bury strangled her to avoid any noise and a messy crime scene.

Based on what I've read so far I think it would be highly unlikely JTR starting ripping Polly before cutting her throat. She most definitely would've made some sort of loud noise for people to hear, and she would've been uncontrollable and noisier still.

Columbo

[drstrange169]

Hello Billiou,

Who was telling the truth and who wasn't is a different issue and one I was not covering.

Fisherman wrote,
".. whenever somebody says that Paul spoke to Mizen, then that somebody is Lechmere."

That was an incorrect statement. I was just correcting it. No more no less.


>>Note: Every newspaper account opens Mizen's account with reporting that he said "a man" who was passing spoke to him.<<

Fisherman wrote,
"Mizen explicitely says that "a man" came up to him and spoke, and he never says that TWO men did. "

Again, Fisherman was incorrect. Mizen was never recorded using those words. It would be misleading if anyone thought that was a direct quote from Mizen.


>>"A journalist concocted phrase". I think "concocted" would be too strong a word. I believe, since nearly every newspaper uses the same term, that that is what Mizen must have said.<<

"...he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man ..."

is a third party summation, almost certainly, from a press agency piece, hence the duplication.

The newspapers that quoted Mizen in the first person naturally take precedence over that that paraphrased don't you think?

[drstrange169]

>Not on his first arrival at the scene, but after he had come back with the ambulance and had helped move the body.<<

Spot on!

[drstrange169]

Hello Columbo,

>So 20 minutes past four? it took them half an hour to find Mizen?
For my own clarification I thought Cross had to be at work at 4am. Am I incorrect?<<

You are correct.

The Echo report of Mizen's appearance at the inquest is riddled with errors. It is why it should be viewed in context with all the other reports. And those other reports clearly identify Mizen's comments as referring to what he saw after he returned with the ambulance as Billiou has already noted.

[drstrange169]

Would anyone disagree with my other two comments?

>>The surroundings were crammed with PC:s and watchmen, and he would take a tremendeous risk by running.<<

Ergo, it was a tremendous risk to commit the murder at that spot and yet that's indisputably what happened.

It was this killer's modus operandi to take risks.


>>And still, the coroner said that given the amount of PC:s and watchmen in the vicinity, it was "nothing less than astonishing" that the killer could slip away.<<

According to the Times, what Baxter actually said was,

"It seems astonishing at first thought that the culprit should have escaped detection, for there must surely have been marks of blood about his person. If, however, blood was principally on his hands, the presence of so many slaughter-houses in the neighbourhood would make the frequenters of this spot familiar with blood- stained clothes and hands, and his appearance might in that way have failed to attract attention while he passed from Buck's-row in the twilight into Whitechapel-road, and was lost sight of in the morning's market traffic."

Which, of course, is completely different.

[Columbo]

Hello Columbo,

>So 20 minutes past four? it took them half an hour to find Mizen?
For my own clarification I thought Cross had to be at work at 4am. Am I incorrect?<<

You are correct.

The Echo report of Mizen's appearance at the inquest is riddled with errors. It is why it should be viewed in context with all the other reports. And those other reports clearly identify Mizen's comments as referring to what he saw after he returned with the ambulance as Billiou has already noted.

Thank you sir. I will have to look at the Echo report with new eyes.

Columbo

[John Wheat]

I suggest Bury strangled her to avoid any noise and a messy crime scene.

Based on what I've read so far I think it would be highly unlikely JTR starting ripping Polly before cutting her throat. She most definitely would've made some sort of loud noise for people to hear, and she would've been uncontrollable and noisier still.

Columbo

To Colombo

So why mutilate Ellen at all then?

Cheers John

[Billiou]

>>Note: Every newspaper account opens Mizen's account with reporting that he said "a man" who was passing spoke to him.<<

Fisherman wrote,
"Mizen explicitely says that "a man" came up to him and spoke, and he never says that TWO men did. "

Again, Fisherman was incorrect. Mizen was never recorded using those words. It would be misleading if anyone thought that was a direct quote from Mizen.

>>"A journalist concocted phrase". I think "concocted" would be too strong a word. I believe, since nearly every newspaper uses the same term, that that is what Mizen must have said.<<

"...he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man ..."

is a third party summation, almost certainly, from a press agency piece, hence the duplication.

The newspapers that quoted Mizen in the first person naturally take precedence over that that paraphrased don't you think?

OK, maybe Fisherman should have wrote "Mizen reportedly said" rather than "explicitly said" but it is true that Mizen never reportedly said that he was spoken to by Paul ie that he didn't speak with two men, only with Cross.

And as for the first person/ third person idea, the newspapers reported:
The Times: “he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, and a man passing said "You are wanted in Baker's-row." The man, named Cross, stated that a woman had been found there.”
The Star: “he was in Hanbury-street, Baker's-row. A man passing said to him, "You're wanted round in Buck's-row." That man was Carman Cross (who came into the Court-room in a coarse sacking apron), and he had come from Buck's-row. He said a woman had been found there.”
The Evening Post: “he was in Baker’s-row, at the corner of Hanbury-street. A man passed, who looked like a carman, and said “You are wanted round in Buck’s-row”. A carman was brought in court, and witness said he was the man.”
The Echo: “he was at the corner of Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman. Witness asked him what was the matter, and Cross replied, "A policeman wants you; there is a woman lying there."”
The Daily Telegraph: “he was at the crossing, Hanbury-street, Baker's-row, when a carman who passed in company with another man informed him that he was wanted by a policeman in Buck's-row, where a woman was lying.”
The Morning Advertiser: “I was at the end of Hanbury street, Baker's row, when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman. (The man, whose name is George Cross, was brought in and witness identified him as the man who spoke to him on the morning in question).”
Police Illustrated News: “he was at the corner of Hanbury-street and Baker's-row, a carman passing by, in company with another man, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row by a policeman. A woman is lying there."”

While it is true that TMA was the only newspaper to report Mizens statement in first person, when you look at all the newspapers, first person/third person makes no real difference to what was reported.

"Paraphrased" is the better word, in this case, than "concocted". Unfortunately we will have to live with paraphrasing as it was, and still is, the realm of the newspaperman. As in anything, we should consider all the newspaper reports as a whole and try to make sense from them all.

[drstrange169]

>>OK, maybe Fisherman should have wrote "Mizen reportedly said" rather than "explicitly said"<<

That's all I was correcting.


>>... but it is true that Mizen never reportedly said that he was spoken to by Paul ie that he didn't speak with two men, only with Cross.<<

You keep trying to debate a point I agree with, so there's not much to say;-)


>>While it is true that TMA was the only newspaper to report Mizens statement in first person...<<

No exclusive for them, the Telegraph, Standard, Daily News and at least two other newspapers I can't remember the names of right now also reported Mizen in the first person.


>>As in anything, we should consider all the newspaper reports as a whole and try to make sense from them all.<<

Couldn't agree more, in fact I just told Columbo the same thing!

[Scott Nelson]

So why mutilate Ellen at all then?

She was killed for her money.

Secondarily, Bury was a misogynist and a psychopath, possible accounting for the mutilations.

[Columbo]

To Colombo

So why mutilate Ellen at all then?

Cheers John

Anger, rage. He stabbed her a number of times. He didn't cut her open, he didn't slice anything off. He just stabbed her.

Most of the time when someone is stabbed beyond what is necessary to kill them, it's an act of emotions. This happens more often with spouses then strangers, unless the stranger was so angered at the other person for something that triggered an emotional response.

With some Killers you get that kind of emotional response. Some victims as well will take out a lot of anger on an abusive spouse, boyfriend, parent etc.

It's well documented if you want to look it up. Bizarre, sick stuff.

Columbo

[Columbo]

She was killed for her money.

Secondarily, Bury was a misogynist and a psychopath, possible accounting for the mutilations.

I think she was out of money at that point wasn't she? Wasn't that what Bury said the fight was about?

I would agree he also was a misogynist, but lets keep the mutilations in perspective. Stabbings and mutilation are not the same thing. I don't think we want to give people the expression she was splayed out like Eddowes, because she wasn't. She was a victim with multiple stab wounds.

Columbo

[Billiou]

>>... but it is true that Mizen never reportedly said that he was spoken to by Paul ie that he didn't speak with two men, only with Cross.<<

You keep trying to debate a point I agree with, so there's not much to say;-)


>>While it is true that TMA was the only newspaper to report Mizens statement in first person...<<

No exclusive for them, the Telegraph, Standard, Daily News and at least two other newspapers I can't remember the names of right now also reported Mizen in the first person.

Sorry, I didn't read your post agreeing with Fish.

I have checked, in addition to the ones I quoted in my post, The Evening News and The Daily News and have only found TMA in first person for Mizen. If you could point out the other newspapers using first person I would appreciate it.