Could Bury have been Astracan Man?

[John Wheat]

Hello, John.

Not entirely convinced he was the Ripper but based on empirical evidence he has to be the outstanding candidate. Find me another suspect in the East End who's a proven mutilator of women.

I agree Harry Bury is the outstanding candidate and there isn't another suspect who's a proven mutilator of women.

Cheers John

[curious]

To curious

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper.

Cheers John

There's just never any way to gauge such things on the boards here, is there?

To my recent supposition, if Bury were to have been Astracan Man, then AM was Kelly's killer, which I'd never particularly bought into before.

So, I, at least am looking at things differently -- apparently the only one to be doing so.

ETA Dang it, those smilies show up places I don't intend. I meant for it to be at the end of my message.

[Harry D]

What struggle? She had cashous in her hand for god sakes, there was no struggle in physical evidence, there was a grab and twist of her scarf and one slit across her throat. 2 seconds and silent.

That's exactly my point. You're proposing that a disgruntled punter accosted Stride and killed her. If that were the case, how did she end up in the yard with the cachous in her hand?

I didn't say a club member killed her, I said the club would be in deep trouble if the police focused on the club for primary suspects. As it was Israel changed that focus Sunday night, conveniently.

How do you claim to know any of this?

That's your instinct talking, is it? Hardly enough to discount an idea. One that has some motive evidence within witness statements. You are aware that the police speculated that she may have been dropped there?

It's not my instinct talking, it's a little thing called common sense. If Eddowes had been mutilated to the extent of someone like Alice McKenzie, that would lend a little more credibility to your theory, as her murder is the closest thing to what people regard as a 'copycat'. You seem to be falling back on this idea that the East End was a hotbed for violence, and while it's true that women were regularly abused, it's something else to rip out a woman's guts in the middle of the street and butcher her face.

Nonsense and speculative serial killer goobly goop. Nothing within the physical evidence supports a single killer from Polly to Mary...just time, and geography, and opinions.

As opposed to your pop-psychology that Mary Kelly must've been killed by someone she knew because her wounds were overkill?

Actually 3 women were extensively mutilated within 2 1/2 months. Liz wasn't mutilated at all, and Polly was mutilated to a far lesser degree than the 3 who were badly cut up

Four women all had their throats cut, suffered abdominal mutilations and three out of four had their organs removed. And you want to attribute this to no less than three different killers?

I see that logic wasn't sufficient when supposing various scenarios for you, that's fine. And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.

Has there ever been a case where a series of victims were killed in a very specific way and it turned out NOT to be committed by the same hand? The police were able to link together the interstate murders of someone like Ted Bundy, but you don't believe that a series of women with their throats cut and their bodies mutilated in three months within a one mile radius equals a trend?

[John Wheat]

And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.

What exactly are these many known factors? The fact that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury that much? Why would Bury hang himself. If he'd mutilated Ellen Bury to the same extent that Mary Kelly was mutilated surely he'd have known he was going to be hung as the Ripper? I think Bury expected to get away with Ellen Bury's murder.

[curious]

I believe that's most evident in the case of Kelly...there is nothing that was done to her that resembles a goal oriented mutilation. Unless the "goal" was simply to cut pieces off her off and out of her. Polly and Annies killer wanted to access the abdomen, and remove some organs based there.

I see curiosity in the Kelly murder and can see curiosity in the escalation in the mutilations of the victims.

Tabram's murder I can see as the result of fury. Something happened between Tabram and her killer and he flew into a mad, drunken fit.

Mike Hawley, known here on Casebook as mklhawley, has written extensively about how intrigued he is "at how similar the Anatomical (Florentine) Venus display with the female lying on her back on a bed with her breasts off and her abdominal area exposed looks so much like how they found the body of Mary Kelly."

Hawley's research shows that there were Anatomical Venuses on display in the Whitechapel area.

The figurines had their internal organs on display and the organs could be lifted from the body.

Kelly has always looked like curiosity to me. After reading Hawley's articles, I can't help but wonder if that might not be a partial motive for the removal of organs of the Ripper's victims.

With Kelly, the curiosity included stripping muscles from bone and other explorations.

Is it possible our killer visited a Venus (probably numerous times) and wondered if women were really put together like that?

So, I can see one killer, who started in a fury -- wonder if she "dis-respected" him in some way. It felt good and murder became his way of dealing with disrespect.

Tommy Lynn Sells, who was executed in Texas, often killed when he was slighted or disrespected in some way, according to things I've read about him.

Did that power the Whitechapel killer?

I can see as Bury in that role in more and more ways.

[curious]

What exactly are these many known factors? The fact that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury that much? Why would Bury hang himself. If he'd mutilated Ellen Bury to the same extent that Mary Kelly was mutilated surely he'd have known he was going to be hung as the Ripper? I think Bury expected to get away with Ellen Bury's murder.

John,
I agree with you that Bury thought he could talk his way out of Ellen's murder.

That's why he attended court as he tried to decide what to do. Whatever went on in court apparently convinced him that he could make his story convincing enough.

[Boggles]

He did have a fur lined coat in his chest - it was same case as the bloodstained belt. See the thread ''through the keyhole'' - Just saying.

[curious]

He did have a fur lined coat in his chest - it was same case as the bloodstained belt. See the thread ''through the keyhole'' - Just saying.

Thanks, Boggles, for "just saying."

If I knew about the fur-lined coat, I'd forgotten it.

It's curious to me, but the closest sighting in appearance to Bury was Mrs. Long who thought she saw Annie Chapman. The man Long saw was barely taller than Chapman. Perfect for Bury.

Unfortunately, I'm convinced that Annie had been dead for some time before Long left for work.

Thanks again.

[Aethelwulf]

Just this morning, the thought of Bury being Astracan Man came and won't go away.


Apparently Bury was shorter than Hutchinson's guess and he was a little younger.

I believe we know:

1. Bury was "foreign" in appearance,
2. Bury liked to dress up. He enjoyed nice clothing.
3. He liked people to think he was more than he was,
4. He and Ellen went to Wolverhampton for the races,
5. He is known to have purchased jewelry for his wife while in Wolverhampton.

Why would he not have also purchased jewelry for himself?

Since it was during the races, would he have purchased "horsey" style jewelry -- the sort he might have thought horse owners themselves would wear? But being an outsider, he would most likely have bought the cheap, flashy stuff sold by vendors that undoubtedly were set up near the tracks.

George Hutchinson, as an out-of-work groom, would have spent a lot of time with the horsey, racing set. He would have been very familiar with items sold by vendors around the tracks. He would have been able to recognize those items in the dark, at a hundred paces. That's why his description could be so complete.

Also, as a groom, Hutchinson would have been watching the rich owners for years and the light spats over dark would have jumped out at him because they were all wrong for the rich character Bury was trying to portray.

Perhaps Hutchinson waited so long outside Kelly's room because he was interested in talking to Astracan Man, maybe see if he had a job or to just figure out who he was as it appeared he frequented the races too.

I suggest that Hutchinson's description threw Bury into a panic. He disposed of the jewelry and clothing detailed in all the papers. He sold his pony and cart and left town, taking Ellen because he knew she would blab about him getting rid of his clothing and jewelry and being out on the nights of the murders.

Does anyone else think Bury is a good possibility for Astracan Man?

This thought also occurred to me and I’m not so sure it is as crazy as it appears at first sight. If we assume for a moment that Hutchinson wasn’t lying (I know a lot of people have an issue with that), and we ignore the attire of Aman for a second, the man’s description isn’t so very different to other witnesses: 5/5 – 5/6, fair moustache, pale, earlier 30s, soft felt hat, Jewish look.

Next, we know two things about Aman: he liked nice clothes and jewellery. Amongst other things, Aman wore an astrakhan (fur lined) coat and kid gloves, both items Bury had in his possession when his flat was searched. Bury obviously liked nice clothes and liked to dress the part as having not been in Scotland long, he had some tweed trousers. Bury also had a range of hats, one listed as a tile hat. I’ve looked up what this means and several websites state that a tile hat was a high silk hat. In terms of jewellery, the newspaper article below shows evidence of Bury’s liking for such goods. Bury seems to have worn a collection of rings, some gold, and also splashed out on for jewellery for Ellen. As suggested in the original post, when Bury went to the races in Wolverhampton, he may even have bought some sort of naff bling horseshoe jewel pin, as observed by Hutchinson. Having been poor and worked as a peddler, now was his chance to show off with Ellen’s money. Bury strikes me as a bit of an evil Del Boy – ‘all the gear/no idea’.

Bury seems to have been vain enough and had enough money to dress as Aman. If Hutchinson is to be believed, Aman must be the prime suspect as he was still in with Kelly after 3 am. If the cry of murder at around 4 was Kelly, he may have bided his time to make sure the coast was clear. I have often thought that Kelly’s ‘you will be comfortable’ sounds like she was offering a bed for the night. Perhaps Aman said he was in town for the Lord Mayor’s Show and needed a bed and would also explain the attire.

Compared to some of the other bonkers theories on here, Bury as Aman is not all that bad!

[Aethelwulf]

As well as owning a fur-lined coat, kid gloves and having a fondness for sporting his jewellery, there is also a similar 'white linen' reference:

AMan as per Hutch:' He wore a very thick gold chain and white linen collar'

Bury: 'When he appeared in court the next day, he was described as “particularly tidy about the neck, exhibiting a good deal of white linen” (Bury website, from Dundee Advertiser)

Hutch also described Aman as walking in a 'sharp' fashion, a description also given by one of the witnesses of Farmer's attacker, who I am sure was Bury (see Bury's Neck thread).

Something else I have wondered about is Aman's 'kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it'. From Hutch's description the the 'kind of' terminology suggests he is far from clear what Aman is holding. He also makes this observation from a little way off as Kelly had 'went away toward Thrawl Street' at this point and Hutch was watching. A per Farmer's man, was Hutch actually looking at a whip held in the middle to squash it flatish with the handle or part of the whip being the parcel's strap? I've always thought it odd that a parcel would have a handle and it must have been something else entirely that just looked a bit like a parcel with strap from a distance.

Finally, Hutch said he stooped down to look at Aman and see his stern face - does this mean either Hutch was very tall or Aman very short?

[Abby Normal]

As well as owning a fur-lined coat, kid gloves and having a fondness for sporting his jewellery, there is also a similar 'white linen' reference:

AMan as per Hutch:' He wore a very thick gold chain and white linen collar'

Bury: 'When he appeared in court the next day, he was described as “particularly tidy about the neck, exhibiting a good deal of white linen” (Bury website, from Dundee Advertiser)

Hutch also described Aman as walking in a 'sharp' fashion, a description also given by one of the witnesses of Farmer's attacker, who I am sure was Bury (see Bury's Neck thread).

Something else I have wondered about is Aman's 'kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it'. From Hutch's description the the 'kind of' terminology suggests he is far from clear what Aman is holding. He also makes this observation from a little way off as Kelly had 'went away toward Thrawl Street' at this point and Hutch was watching. A per Farmer's man, was Hutch actually looking at a whip held in the middle to squash it flatish with the handle or part of the whip being the parcel's strap? I've always thought it odd that a parcel would have a handle and it must have been something else entirely that just looked a bit like a parcel with strap from a distance.

Finally, Hutch said he stooped down to look at Aman and see his stern face - does this mean either Hutch was very tall or Aman very short?

hi wulf
Bury owned a fur line/astrakan coat? whats the source of that?

[Aethelwulf]

hi wulf
Bury owned a fur line/astrakan coat? whats the source of that?

Boggles (Wiggins) posted copies of the original inventory from the Dundee flat a while ago (through the Keyhole thread). Also noticed on there a silk sash and cravat, and something called a tile hat. I've looked this up before and all I can find as a description is 'a tall silk hat'. Clearly he liked his nice clothes and there is reference in the trial notes to Bury trying to get money out of Ellen to go to a 'smoking concert'. Quick search sounds like 'At these functions men would smoke and speak of politics while listening to live music'. Perhaps this is where he was wearing his nice clothes. I suppose he could have used the lord mayor's show the next day as a pretext for going out all smart and asking kelly for a bed for the night. That being said, I still find it difficult to dismiss Maxwell.

[The Baron]

The problem is, Astracan man may very well not have been the kilker!

There were two sightings of Kelly that morning, and I didn't read anything convincing to ignore their testimonies.


The Baron

[The Baron]

I agree Harry Bury is the outstanding candidate and there isn't another suspect who's a proven mutilator of women.

Cheers John

Not just a mutilator John, he is a proven postmortem sexual mutilator.

After reading the doctors reports, I admit I have hard time when it comes to Bury, I wish Mckenzie was not killed, then it would have been a case close to me.



The Baron

[Aethelwulf]

Not just a mutilator John, he is a proven postmortem sexual mutilator.

After reading the doctors reports, I admit I have hard time when it comes to Bury, I wish Mckenzie was not killed, then it would have been a case close to me.



The Baron

I don't have too much of an issue with McKenzie. The two medical reports on Ellen Bury very clearly indicate that she was the ripper victim, not the copycat attempt.

The injuries to McKenzie are basically just scratches :

• A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
• Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
• Small cut across the mons veneris.

Compare to the terminology used to describe some of the wounds on Ellen Bury:

'There was an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen, extending downwards from the umbilicus for four and a half inches. It penetrated the abdominal cavity, and through it protruded part of the omentum, and about a foot of intestine, part of which was dry and black from exposure to the air. This cut was ragged towards the lower part.' (1st medical report)

'In the middle line an incised wound opening the abdominal cavity extends vertically upwards from 1½ inch above the pubis for 4½ inches' (2nd medical report)

'Running downwards from the centre of the pubis to the outer side of the left labium was an incised wound 2 ½ inches in length, penetrating the skin and fat. On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perinaeum, and dividing the sphincter muscle' - (1st medical report)- This is the injury that is basically identical to one on Eddowes.

'the skin, fat and external oblique muscle are divided. (2nd medical report)

'About 1/8 inch above the middle of the groin on the left side is a vertical wound 3½ inches in extent and passing into the subcutaneous tissue' (2nd medical report)

'A second vertical incision runs from the lower edge of the pubis into the vulva, dividing the skin, the mucosa of the labium majus and the subcutaneous fat : It is also 2½ inches long and lies towards the right'(2nd medical report)

'A third incision extends from 1¼ inch posterior to the anus in the middle line and passes obliquely forwards and to the left ending between the vulva and tuberosity of the ischium and dividing the skin, superficial and deep fasciae, inferior haemorrhoidal vessels and part of the sphincter and muscle. (2nd medical report)

'an incised wound, three quarters of an inch in length and penetrating through to the muscular layer' (1st medical report)

It's a no brainer really. These wounds were inflicted by a proven mysoginst, who carried a knife, drank in Whitechapel, used prostitutes, fits many of the witness descriptions in various ways, associated with chalk messages, fits the FBI profile of the killer in pretty much every way, presence and absence bookends the murders, some clear handwriting similarities with from hell, used a very similar MO on his wife as Tabram (blow to the head, strangulation, penknife), must be the prime suspect for attacking Wilson and pretty much nailed on in my mind due to this cut to the neck evidence that he also attacked Farmer. Murdered a woman in the early hours, burned her clothes in the fire, she was wearing only a chemsie (same crime scene features as Kelly).

There is really nothing significant that ties McKenzie to the ripper in my mind. If you look at the crime scene, anyone who wanted to attack a prostitute and access her abdomen would have ended up in a dark spot her skirts would have been pulled up. For something more diagnostic you need to look at the injuries and as above, they don't tally to me. If he had knife sharp enough to cut her throat and time to make all those scratches, he could easily have done at least similar to the injuries on Ellen Bury. I think people tend to fixate on throat cutting. As pointed out in the FBI profile, this is part of the MO for killing, not the ritual signature:

'A subject will change his modus operandi as he gains additional experience. This is learned behavior. However, the personal desires and needs of the subject are expressed in the ritual aspect of a crime. The ritual is something that he must always do because it is the acting out of the fantasy. With Jack the Ripper, the target selection, the approach, the method of his initial attack, are his modus operandi. What takes place after this is the ritual. The ritual may become more elaborate as was in the last homicide case.'

In his own flat Bury didn't need to cut her throat. He began to indulge in the ritual though and was clearly worried he had gone to far with his 'worried about being apprehended as JtR' comment.