Could Bury have been Astracan Man?

[MrBarnett]

I don't have too much of an issue with McKenzie. The two medical reports on Ellen Bury very clearly indicate that she was the ripper victim, not the copycat attempt.

The injuries to McKenzie are basically just scratches :

• A long (seven-inch) 'but not unduly deep' wound from the bottom of the left breast to the navel.
• Seven or eight scratches beginning at the navel and pointing toward the genitalia.
• Small cut across the mons veneris.

Compare to the terminology used to describe some of the wounds on Ellen Bury:

'There was an incised wound in the centre of the abdomen, extending downwards from the umbilicus for four and a half inches. It penetrated the abdominal cavity, and through it protruded part of the omentum, and about a foot of intestine, part of which was dry and black from exposure to the air. This cut was ragged towards the lower part.' (1st medical report)

'In the middle line an incised wound opening the abdominal cavity extends vertically upwards from 1½ inch above the pubis for 4½ inches' (2nd medical report)

'Running downwards from the centre of the pubis to the outer side of the left labium was an incised wound 2 ½ inches in length, penetrating the skin and fat. On the inner side of the right labium was a wound 2 inches in length, penetrating the skin. Beginning about an inch behind the anus was an incised wound running forwards and to the left, into the perinaeum, and dividing the sphincter muscle' - (1st medical report)- This is the injury that is basically identical to one on Eddowes.

'the skin, fat and external oblique muscle are divided. (2nd medical report)

'About 1/8 inch above the middle of the groin on the left side is a vertical wound 3½ inches in extent and passing into the subcutaneous tissue' (2nd medical report)

'A second vertical incision runs from the lower edge of the pubis into the vulva, dividing the skin, the mucosa of the labium majus and the subcutaneous fat : It is also 2½ inches long and lies towards the right'(2nd medical report)

'A third incision extends from 1¼ inch posterior to the anus in the middle line and passes obliquely forwards and to the left ending between the vulva and tuberosity of the ischium and dividing the skin, superficial and deep fasciae, inferior haemorrhoidal vessels and part of the sphincter and muscle. (2nd medical report)

'an incised wound, three quarters of an inch in length and penetrating through to the muscular layer' (1st medical report)

It's a no brainer really. These wounds were inflicted by a proven mysoginst, who carried a knife, drank in Whitechapel, used prostitutes, fits many of the witness descriptions in various ways, associated with chalk messages, fits the FBI profile of the killer in pretty much every way, presence and absence bookends the murders, some clear handwriting similarities with from hell, used a very similar MO on his wife as Tabram (blow to the head, strangulation, penknife), must be the prime suspect for attacking Wilson and pretty much nailed on in my mind due to this cut to the neck evidence that he also attacked Farmer. Murdered a woman in the early hours, burned her clothes in the fire, she was wearing only a chemsie (same crime scene features as Kelly).

There is really nothing significant that ties McKenzie to the ripper in my mind. If you look at the crime scene, anyone who wanted to attack a prostitute and access her abdomen would have ended up in a dark spot her skirts would have been pulled up. For something more diagnostic you need to look at the injuries and as above, they don't tally to me. If he had knife sharp enough to cut her throat and time to make all those scratches, he could easily have done at least similar to the injuries on Ellen Bury. I think people tend to fixate on throat cutting. As pointed out in the FBI profile, this is part of the MO for killing, not the ritual signature:

'A subject will change his modus operandi as he gains additional experience. This is learned behavior. However, the personal desires and needs of the subject are expressed in the ritual aspect of a crime. The ritual is something that he must always do because it is the acting out of the fantasy. With Jack the Ripper, the target selection, the approach, the method of his initial attack, are his modus operandi. What takes place after this is the ritual. The ritual may become more elaborate as was in the last homicide case.'

In his own flat Bury didn't need to cut her throat. He began to indulge in the ritual though and was clearly worried he had gone to far with his 'worried about being apprehended as JtR' comment.

A very interesting post, A.

Do you exclude Tabram on a similar basis?

[Harry D]

The problem with Alice McKenzie's murder is that it comes sandwiched between the murders of Elizabeth Jackson & the Pinchin Street torso. This opens up a potential can of worms that might cause one to rethink the series of murders across London.

The good thing is, the chances of Ellen Bury & Alice McKenzie both being copycat murders are pretty slim.

[Aethelwulf]

A very interesting post, A.

Do you exclude Tabram on a similar basis?

I suppose the difficulty is that Tabram is separated in time and methods by quite a bit from McKenzie. Tabram seems to belong in style to the early penknife/clasp knife attacks of Millwood and Wilson. Not that Wilson was necessarily an attempted ripper murder, just that Bury was an all round mean f****r and if he wanted money and it wasn't given, he hit out. I know it doesn't seem to carry much weight with folk on here but the Keppel et al., ripper signature paper excludes Smith, Mckenzie and Coles and includes Tabram. They know better than me and have real world experience of working on these sort of cases, so that is good enough for me.

Can I imagine Bury carrying out the Tabram attack? Certainly. If you think about how he was witnessed knocking his wife to ground without any sort of provocation when she was out looking for him, and considering that the penknife he had hidden under his pillow at night was almost certainly in his pocket when he assaulted Ellen on various occasions - what would he have done to a stranger who either provoked him, made fun of him or he just went out looking for specifically to make an attack? You could argue the murder of ellen had elements of both the early attacks - rage and blow to head, and the later mutilation.

Back to the main question of the thread. If someone put a gun to my head and forced me to give an answer as to when Kelly was murdered and by whom, I'd plump for the ~4 am scream and Aman, who was actually Bury with his bling that was remarked on by neighbours in Dundee and wearing in his dandy 'smoking concert' finery. I think it was planned well in advance under the pretext of wanting a bed for the night to go to the lord mayor's show. In his report Bond remarked that the corner of the sheet to the right of the kelly's head was much cut and saturated with blood, indicating that the face may have been covered with the sheet at the time of the attack - I think that is the origin of the scream as the sheet was initially placed over her head and alerted her. I think the snippets of conversation Hutch heard were related to Aman offering money 'you'll be alright for what I've told you' and Kelly offering the bed 'you will be comfortable'. Others will no doubt strongly disagree!

[The Baron]

The fact that there was another ripper style murder on the same streets of Whitechapel (Mckenzie) will always and should always overweighs a similarity of an incision done to a domestic violence victim (Ellen)

Great minds think alike, also sick minds think alike.



The Baron

[Aethelwulf]

The fact that there was another ripper style murder on the same streets of Whitechapel (Mckenzie) will always and should always overweighs a similarity of an incision done to a domestic violence victim (Ellen)

Great minds think alike, also sick minds think alike.



The Baron

I suspect you hold the majority view on this, but is it really that simple? It would be if Bury was just some random who turned up in Dundee and performed a sexually motivated mutilation. But Bury was a brutal knife wielding misogynist who was located very close to Whitechapel throughout the autumn 1888. He used at least one prostitute (and possibly married one) and can be placed as drinking and violent in Whitechapel. He first appears in the records in Oct '87, after which we hear about the first possible embryonic ripper attacks (Millwood); having left in Jan '89 there are no further unanimously viewed ripper murders.

Most people will take your view I suspect, but as you said, Bury is the only proven sexually motivated mutilator amongst the suspects. My view is that it seems a very big coincidence that someone of Bury's nature and profile was in the area and wasn't the killer. Although people tend to dismiss it fairly readily, Bury's match to the FBI profile of the killer is very striking, more so than for any other suspect IMO.

All Mckenzie's killer has in his favour is geography - as above post, the actual injuries are not of the same violence and intent as Ellen Bury. I think McKenzie's killer thought the actual method of killing was the most important and couldn't stomach the signature ritual. Bury didn't care either way about the killing but couldn't resist the impulse to indulge in the ritual.

[Guest]

I enjoy your posts Athelwulf because there are little gems which not lost on everyone, like your mention of the smoking concert finery. This came up in the trial notes he wanted money from Ellen to go with his mates to a smoking concert, I wonderd when and where this may have been and what entailed, whether it would involve opium maybe not but was quite popular at the time.

Mackenzie troubles me, but most (not all) of the contemporary experts asserted that she wasn't a ripper victim.

[Aethelwulf]

I enjoy your posts Athelwulf because there are little gems which not lost on everyone, like your mention of the smoking concert finery. This came up in the trial notes he wanted money from Ellen to go with his mates to a smoking concert, I wonderd when and where this may have been and what entailed, whether it would involve opium maybe not but was quite popular at the time.

Mackenzie troubles me, but most (not all) of the contemporary experts asserted that she wasn't a ripper victim.

Cheers wiggins. One of the things that interests me about Aman being real and the killer is that Bury alone amongst the more credible suspects could have pulled off the bog ordinary average Joe look and the vain prancing peacock of Aman.

The horeshoe jewell pin interests me. I have this vision in my head of Bury turning up to the races in Wolverhampton with Ellen and doing a bit of a shoulder roll thinking 'look at me I'm the Big Man' all dressed up in what he thinks is the proper attire. At the same time all of the regular race goers are looking at him and simultaneously thinking 'what a prick'!

Back on Mckenzie, 1888 whitechapel society was a melting pot of all sorts trauma, social injustice and ills and probably lots of misfits who could have accessed the most desperate and vulnerable women. We know that multiple mutilators in the same place and time are rare, but if there was one time and place it could have happened, it must be late Victorian whitechapel.

[paul g]

R E Wolverhampton races
No racing between 1886 until 1888 in Wolverhampton due to building of new track.
first meeting at new track was on the 13th -15th august 1888 and the only meeting(s) that month

[Aethelwulf]

R E Wolverhampton races
No racing between 1886 until 1888 in Wolverhampton due to building of new track.
first meeting at new track was on the 13th -15th august 1888 and the only meeting(s) that month

yes i think that is the meeting he is supposed to have been at. I think somewhere Beadle states this little holiday of taking Ellen back to the west midlands had the look of been hastily arranged, or words to that effect. I believe the idea is the holiday was arranged in a hurry so he could leave town after the Tabram attack.

[Abby Normal]

yeah interesting points. i couldnt beleive it when i saw burys letter and handwriting (i think the one to his priest). it was down right elegant. i couldnt put that letter to that thug. so apparently he could also come across as gentile

[Abby Normal]

yeah interesting points. i couldnt beleive it when i saw burys letter and handwriting (i think the one to his priest). it was down right elegant. i couldnt put that letter to that thug. so apparently he could also come across as gentile

that should be genteel lol

[Aethelwulf]

yeah interesting points. i couldnt beleive it when i saw burys letter and handwriting (i think the one to his priest). it was down right elegant. i couldnt put that letter to that thug. so apparently he could also come across as gentile

Perhaps Wiggins can upload a copy of Bury's copperplate style forgery letter?

Bury did work as a factor's clerk at one point. Sounds like that involved copying out text into ledgers and something that would only be trusted to someone with very neat handwriting. I'm sure I read somewhere he had that job aged 16 (might have misremembered that) - if so, must have been unusual for back then. I think the priest you are referring also described Bury as very intelligent. Bury is always a good bet for any sort of disguised handwriting (GSG, from hell) or crafty cunningness.

[Mark J D]

... i couldnt beleive it when i saw burys letter and handwriting (i think the one to his priest)...

Somewhere on here is a set of comparisons between a Bury sample (envelope?) and the 'From Hell' letter. They are pretty striking.

M.

[Aethelwulf]

Somewhere on here is a set of comparisons between a Bury sample (envelope?) and the 'From Hell' letter. They are pretty striking.

M.

[Guest]

Wulf thinking about a thread on that other JTR postcard, uploading Burys copperplate style of the forged employment letter Vs his casual casual hand?
WOuldnt mind people's impartial view on that, to me a closer match than the from hell letter which was heavily disguised