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Could Bury have been Astracan Man?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Harry D View Post
    Hello, John.

    Not entirely convinced he was the Ripper but based on empirical evidence he has to be the outstanding candidate. Find me another suspect in the East End who's a proven mutilator of women.
    I agree Harry Bury is the outstanding candidate and there isn't another suspect who's a proven mutilator of women.

    Cheers John

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    • #32
      Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
      To curious

      Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper.

      Cheers John
      There's just never any way to gauge such things on the boards here, is there?

      To my recent supposition, if Bury were to have been Astracan Man, then AM was Kelly's killer, which I'd never particularly bought into before.

      So, I, at least am looking at things differently -- apparently the only one to be doing so.

      ETA Dang it, those smilies show up places I don't intend. I meant for it to be at the end of my message.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        What struggle? She had cashous in her hand for god sakes, there was no struggle in physical evidence, there was a grab and twist of her scarf and one slit across her throat. 2 seconds and silent.
        That's exactly my point. You're proposing that a disgruntled punter accosted Stride and killed her. If that were the case, how did she end up in the yard with the cachous in her hand?

        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        I didn't say a club member killed her, I said the club would be in deep trouble if the police focused on the club for primary suspects. As it was Israel changed that focus Sunday night, conveniently.
        How do you claim to know any of this?

        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        That's your instinct talking, is it? Hardly enough to discount an idea. One that has some motive evidence within witness statements. You are aware that the police speculated that she may have been dropped there?
        It's not my instinct talking, it's a little thing called common sense. If Eddowes had been mutilated to the extent of someone like Alice McKenzie, that would lend a little more credibility to your theory, as her murder is the closest thing to what people regard as a 'copycat'. You seem to be falling back on this idea that the East End was a hotbed for violence, and while it's true that women were regularly abused, it's something else to rip out a woman's guts in the middle of the street and butcher her face.

        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        Nonsense and speculative serial killer goobly goop. Nothing within the physical evidence supports a single killer from Polly to Mary...just time, and geography, and opinions.
        As opposed to your pop-psychology that Mary Kelly must've been killed by someone she knew because her wounds were overkill?

        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        Actually 3 women were extensively mutilated within 2 1/2 months. Liz wasn't mutilated at all, and Polly was mutilated to a far lesser degree than the 3 who were badly cut up
        Four women all had their throats cut, suffered abdominal mutilations and three out of four had their organs removed. And you want to attribute this to no less than three different killers?

        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        I see that logic wasn't sufficient when supposing various scenarios for you, that's fine. And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.
        Has there ever been a case where a series of victims were killed in a very specific way and it turned out NOT to be committed by the same hand? The police were able to link together the interstate murders of someone like Ted Bundy, but you don't believe that a series of women with their throats cut and their bodies mutilated in three months within a one mile radius equals a trend?
        Last edited by Harry D; 12-29-2015, 07:15 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
          And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.
          What exactly are these many known factors? The fact that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury that much? Why would Bury hang himself. If he'd mutilated Ellen Bury to the same extent that Mary Kelly was mutilated surely he'd have known he was going to be hung as the Ripper? I think Bury expected to get away with Ellen Bury's murder.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            I believe that's most evident in the case of Kelly...there is nothing that was done to her that resembles a goal oriented mutilation. Unless the "goal" was simply to cut pieces off her off and out of her. Polly and Annies killer wanted to access the abdomen, and remove some organs based there.
            I see curiosity in the Kelly murder and can see curiosity in the escalation in the mutilations of the victims.

            Tabram's murder I can see as the result of fury. Something happened between Tabram and her killer and he flew into a mad, drunken fit.

            Mike Hawley, known here on Casebook as mklhawley, has written extensively about how intrigued he is "at how similar the Anatomical (Florentine) Venus display with the female lying on her back on a bed with her breasts off and her abdominal area exposed looks so much like how they found the body of Mary Kelly."

            Hawley's research shows that there were Anatomical Venuses on display in the Whitechapel area.

            The figurines had their internal organs on display and the organs could be lifted from the body.

            Kelly has always looked like curiosity to me. After reading Hawley's articles, I can't help but wonder if that might not be a partial motive for the removal of organs of the Ripper's victims.

            With Kelly, the curiosity included stripping muscles from bone and other explorations.

            Is it possible our killer visited a Venus (probably numerous times) and wondered if women were really put together like that?

            So, I can see one killer, who started in a fury -- wonder if she "dis-respected" him in some way. It felt good and murder became his way of dealing with disrespect.

            Tommy Lynn Sells, who was executed in Texas, often killed when he was slighted or disrespected in some way, according to things I've read about him.

            Did that power the Whitechapel killer?

            I can see as Bury in that role in more and more ways.
            Last edited by curious; 01-09-2016, 07:00 AM.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
              What exactly are these many known factors? The fact that he didn't mutilate Ellen Bury that much? Why would Bury hang himself. If he'd mutilated Ellen Bury to the same extent that Mary Kelly was mutilated surely he'd have known he was going to be hung as the Ripper? I think Bury expected to get away with Ellen Bury's murder.
              John,
              I agree with you that Bury thought he could talk his way out of Ellen's murder.

              That's why he attended court as he tried to decide what to do. Whatever went on in court apparently convinced him that he could make his story convincing enough.

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              • #37
                He did have a fur lined coat in his chest - it was same case as the bloodstained belt. See the thread ''through the keyhole'' - Just saying.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Boggles View Post
                  He did have a fur lined coat in his chest - it was same case as the bloodstained belt. See the thread ''through the keyhole'' - Just saying.
                  Thanks, Boggles, for "just saying."

                  If I knew about the fur-lined coat, I'd forgotten it.

                  It's curious to me, but the closest sighting in appearance to Bury was Mrs. Long who thought she saw Annie Chapman. The man Long saw was barely taller than Chapman. Perfect for Bury.

                  Unfortunately, I'm convinced that Annie had been dead for some time before Long left for work.

                  Thanks again.

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