Could Bury have been Astracan Man?

[GUT]

G'day Michael

3. Mary was killed by someone she knew intimately, someone whose anger with her is evident in the facial slashing and the general destruction of her. Her wounds were not intended as mimicry, but they filled that bill nicely.

Does that fit with her singing though.

[Ben]

Hi Curious,

No, I'm afraid Bury would make a very poor candidate for Astrakhan man, even if the latter wasn't discredited by the police at the time owing the "very reduced importance" ultimately accorded Hutchinson's story. There is obviously no similarity between the dark moustachioed Jewish-looking Astrakhan, and pint-sized Gentile Bury (the "foreign" bit was added by the press to avoid adding fuel to the already prevalent anti-semitic feeling). If the intention is to compare Bury with eyewitness sightings, it would be better to go with one that wasn't discredited and has at least some concession towards similarity. It is to the credit of both MacPherson and Beadle that neither author inferred a Hutchinson connection in their Bury-favouring books.

I note a couple of misconceptions with regard to Hutchinson's supposed employment as a groom. There is absolutely no evidence that this involved racing, or that Hutchinson had ever set foot in a race track in his life; accordingly, the idea that he was familiar with the clothes and accessories worn by the racing social "set" is completely without foundation. It might have been overlooked that horses fulfilled a mundane and functional purpose in 1888 before the invention of motorized transport; they're not the exclusive reserve of the Jolly-Hockeysticks set who might use them today for racing, hunting, or cantering with Pongo and Lottie on the Ashdown Forest.

I doubt very much that Astrakhan's clothing and accessories were "sold by vendors around the tracks", and even if they were, it wouldn't have aided Hutchinson's abilities to see such items in those darkened conditions, let alone recognise and memorise them in additional to a whole host of other, non-horsey details.

I read that Bury liked to dress up, but it's doubtful he was so unstreetwise as to don his fineries when heading into the most crime-infested part of the east end to butcher prostitutes.

Regards,
Ben

[John G]

Hello, everyone,
Thanks for the comments! I appreciate hearing your thoughts.

John, like you, I consider Bury "one of the more plausible candidates."

However, my memory says that he was in Wolverhampton in August. There was some discussion that he could have killed Martha Tabram on Aug. 7, gotten himself out of town for awhile and attended the races in Wolverhampton, then returned to London in time to have killed Polly Nichols on the 31st.

I believe the research was done on the dates of the races in Wolverhampton in 1888 and the conclusion was there was time.

The interesting thing that hit me today was the horse race connection between Bury's vacation, Hutchinson's being a groom and the horseshoe pin of Astracan Man.

Again, thanks everyone for your thoughts and comments.

Hi Curious,

Yes, of course, you're correct about Bury's residence at the relevant time. It's some time since I read Euan's book and I was getting mixed up (I've been away for a few days so I didn't have the book immediately to hand). He was definitely in London from 11 August when the Burys started a new tenancy with William Smith. However, according to Ellen's sister they went to Wolverhampton for a two week holiday in August, although she may have been mistaken. It is therefore during the time of the Tabram murder, on 7 August, that he could have been away.

[curious]

Thanks, Ben and John G, for your input.

Ben, I was/am seeing the racing possibility as a tie when, of course, horses were the transportation of the time and therefore had a much wider function. It just seemed to me that since Hutchinson could so thoroughly describe pieces of jewelry (one of the often voiced objections to his testimony), he had to be very familiar with them. Having been on the racing circuit would explain that. I realize there are other ways, but I believe this one works, too.

Plus, it has been noted here on the boards for quite sometime that Bury did have a dark, Jewish look . . . Since all we have is the drawing of him, it is difficult to be sure.

John, I believe some time ago whoever found the dates of the Wolverhampton races for 1888 determined that they fell at an appropriate time for Bury to commit the Tabram murder, take his holiday (and remove himself from London during the investigation) and be back in town in time for Polly's murder.

Another connection that really intrigues me is the possible familial relationship with Eddowes.

Oh, and the familiarity between Astracan Man and Kelly actually goes along with what I have suspected about JtR -- all the victims had at least seen him around enough not to be afraid of him.

[Ben]

Thanks for your reply, Curious.

At the risk (and it's a perilous one!) of straying into generic Hutch-debate territory, his "thorough descriptions" are only part of the problem. Of more immediate concern is the sheer unlikelihood of Hutchinson being able even to see these things as the man passed, briefly, close to a gas lamp of negligible illuminating power - allegedly noticing and memorizing all sorts of other small accessories and details of attire at the same time.

With the exception of the horseshoe tie-pin, I would argue that there was little or nothing else about his appearance to suggest a horse-racing interest.

"Astrakhan man" is a very unsubtle attempt, in my view, to pander to popular preconceptions about the ripper's likely appearance; surly, well-dressed, Jewish and carrying a suspicious-looking package. For that reason, and without reflecting at all negatively on Bury as a suspect (who is admittedly one of the more plausible ones), I would personally avoid any comparisons with Astrakhan man.

I would be interested to see a reference to Bury being dark complexioned and Jewish looking (and unbearded, for that matter).

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Another connection that really intrigues me is the possible familial relationship with Eddowes.

Oh, and the familiarity between Astracan Man and Kelly actually goes along with what I have suspected about JtR -- all the victims had at least seen him around enough not to be afraid of him.

Either that or, in seeing those tender touches(?) we are simply bearing witness to the common methods used by prostitutes to make their potential clients feel comfortable. A client who feels like a stranger is not relaxed, treat him like you are old friends....

[curious]

Thanks for your reply, Curious.

At the risk (and it's a perilous one!) of straying into generic Hutch-debate territory, his "thorough descriptions" are only part of the problem. Of more immediate concern is the sheer unlikelihood of Hutchinson being able even to see these things as the man passed, briefly, close to a gas lamp of negligible illuminating power - allegedly noticing and memorizing all sorts of other small accessories and details of attire at the same time.

With the exception of the horseshoe tie-pin, I would argue that there was little or nothing else about his appearance to suggest a horse-racing interest.

"Astrakhan man" is a very unsubtle attempt, in my view, to pander to popular preconceptions about the ripper's likely appearance; surly, well-dressed, Jewish and carrying a suspicious-looking package. For that reason, and without reflecting at all negatively on Bury as a suspect (who is admittedly one of the more plausible ones), I would personally avoid any comparisons with Astrakhan man.

I would be interested to see a reference to Bury being dark complexioned and Jewish looking (and unbearded, for that matter).

All the best,
Ben

Morning, Ben,
Yes, please, let's tippy toe around the Hutch-debate. :-)


Where We Are with Bury
Bill Beadle

He fitted the description of the man seen with three victims, short, swarthy and respectably dressed with features which, said the Dundee press, could be mistaken for Jewish. When the Burys visited Wolverhampton in August,1888, they had a portrait made which shows him with a moustache but no beard or side-whiskers, matching the man whom P.C. Smith and William Marshall saw in Berners Street, an item well reported in the press. Significantly, when he turned up in Dundee Bury was sporting both.

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/ws-bury.html

Hope this helps.

[curious]

Either that or, in seeing those tender touches(?) we are simply bearing witness to the common methods used by prostitutes to make their potential clients feel comfortable. A client who feels like a stranger is not relaxed, treat him like you are old friends....

Hi, Jon,

I can understand prostitutes being outgoing and welcoming with potential clients. Don't know anything from first-hand experience, but it makes sense from a salesmanship perspective.

To me, the encounter between Astracan Man and MJK reads more like old friends meeting than a new client. From posts here on Casebook, it appears that a number of folks feel that MJK did know her killer quite well in advance of the evening that has gone down in history.

At the moment, I lean toward AM and MJK knowing each other.

[Wickerman]

Hi, Jon,

To me, the encounter between Astracan Man and MJK reads more like old friends meeting than a new client. From posts here on Casebook, it appears that a number of folks feel that MJK did know her killer quite well in advance of the evening that has gone down in history.

At the moment, I lean toward AM and MJK knowing each other.

Hi Gwyneth.
It's a reasonable assumption, the clientele of any local prostitute is not likely to change completely, they would have had many repeat customers.
Kelly had lived down at Breezers Hill, with no doubt a regular clientele of sailors, so perhaps more strangers than regulars. Whereas further uptown in Whitechapel away from the docks, the reverse is likely true, more regulars than strangers.

[Harry D]

1. Elizabeth Stride was killed by a thug who mistook her for a working girl that night and was rudely rebuffed, or by someone who believed she was one of the Unfortunate spies that the police recruited.

If Stride had been accosted in that manner, how did she end up inside the yard without anyone hearing a struggle?

And if you're trying to pin this murder on the anarchists club, would they be foolish enough to murder Stride on their own doorstep? And why wouldn't they inflict some Ripper-esque injuries on Stride (as you have suggested with Eddowes) to deflect suspicion?

2. Kate Eddowes was killed by someone who thought she was going to expose his criminal activities...which I believe did not in fact include the unsolved murders she was to suggest his guilt for, ironically. The wounds inflicted were to simulate earlier murders.

The extent of Eddowes' injuries isn't congruent with this proposed scenario. Not even the most hardened criminal is going to mess around in Mitre Square risking his life to extract a woman's internal organs and mutilate her face unless he has the same compulsions as the Ripper. It just doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

3. Mary was killed by someone she knew intimately, someone whose anger with her is evident in the facial slashing and the general destruction of her. Her wounds were not intended as mimicry, but they filled that bill nicely.

With respect, Michael, that still doesn't rule out the work of the same killer.

And that's without getting into the standard explanations that the violence escalated through natural progression, because he was operating indoors, because he had a obsession with MJK from afar, or because she was a more physically appealing specimen than his previous victims, etc. All of which I find to be more plausible theories than inventing another killer who's driven by the ritualistic desire to eviscerate and dehumanize women.

Its a mistake to think other men were not killing at the very same time this Jack fellow was, particularly when we have evidence that strongly suggests it.

I don't think anybody attributes all of the Whitechapel Murders (and others) to the same hand. However, you must concede that a select number of these women in Whitechapel were extensively mutilated and deprived of their organs within a three month time frame.

[John Wheat]

Surely the question should be was Bury Jack the Ripper? and the answer is quite possibly in my opinion.

[curious]

Surely the question should be was Bury Jack the Ripper? and the answer is quite possibly in my opinion.

John, I happen to agree with you that quite possibly Bury was JtR.

However there is controversy about whether Astracan Man even existed.

When I posted in this section, I expected most of the responses to be from people who already believe Bury is quite likely the Ripper, so wanted to take it one step further.

Velma

[John Wheat]

To curious

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper.

Cheers John

[Harry D]

Fair enough. I think though that most people who responded to this thread don't seem to believe Bury is quite likely the ripper

Hello, John.

Not entirely convinced he was the Ripper but based on empirical evidence he has to be the outstanding candidate. Find me another suspect in the East End who's a proven mutilator of women.

[Michael W Richards]

If Stride had been accosted in that manner, how did she end up inside the yard without anyone hearing a struggle?

What struggle? She had cashous in her hand for god sakes, there was no struggle in physical evidence, there was a grab and twist of her scarf and one slit across her throat. 2 seconds and silent.

And if you're trying to pin this murder on the anarchists club, would they be foolish enough to murder Stride on their own doorstep? And why wouldn't they inflict some Ripper-esque injuries on Stride (as you have suggested with Eddowes) to deflect suspicion?

I didn't say a club member killed her, I said the club would be in deep trouble if the police focused on the club for primary suspects. As it was Israel changed that focus Sunday night, conveniently.

The extent of Eddowes' injuries isn't congruent with this proposed scenario. Not even the most hardened criminal is going to mess around in Mitre Square risking his life to extract a woman's internal organs and mutilate her face unless he has the same compulsions as the Ripper. It just doesn't add up, I'm afraid.

That's your instinct talking, is it? Hardly enough to discount an idea. One that has some motive evidence within witness statements. You are aware that the police speculated that she may have been dropped there?

And that's without getting into the standard explanations that the violence escalated through natural progression, because he was operating indoors, because he had a obsession with MJK from afar, or because she was a more physically appealing specimen than his previous victims, etc. All of which I find to be more plausible theories than inventing another killer who's driven by the ritualistic desire to eviscerate and dehumanize women.

Nonsense and speculative serial killer goobly goop. Nothing within the physical evidence supports a single killer from Polly to Mary...just time, and geography, and opinions.

I don't think anybody attributes all of the Whitechapel Murders (and others) to the same hand. However, you must concede that a select number of these women in Whitechapel were extensively mutilated and deprived of their organs within a three month time frame.

Actually 3 women were extensively mutilated within 2 1/2 months. Liz wasn't mutilated at all, and Polly was mutilated to a far lesser degree than the 3 who were badly cut up

I see that logic wasn't sufficient when supposing various scenarios for you, that's fine. And I also see that you think Bury is a prime candidate as a suspect, something which is not supported by any known evidence and discounted by many known factors.